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Old 13-02-2006, 10:49 PM
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I read this book a couple of months ago and had some trouble with it, so I rented the dvd and although I thought it was remarkably well done, with perhaps Richard Burton's finest performance. I still have some questions. For those of you who haven't seen the film you might want to stop here. . . . . SPOILER ALERT


Alec Leamas was an expert spy apparently, but his spys were getting killed off, and he is lured back by Control to become a "defector" to put an end to Mundt. So, what happened? Who betrayed whom? I really payed attention to the plot, etc., but after his conversation with Fiedler, at the trial scene things got a little confusing. Can anyone help me out here? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused1.gif[/img]

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Old 14-02-2006, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
(DeeDee @ Feb 13 2006, 10:49 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I read this book a couple of months ago and had some trouble with it, so I rented the dvd and although I thought it was remarkably well done, with perhaps Richard Burton's finest performance. I still have some questions. For those of you who haven't seen the film you might want to stop here. . . . . SPOILER ALERT
Alec Leamas was an expert spy apparently, but his spys were getting killed off, and he is lured back by Control to become a "defector" to put an end to Mundt. So, what happened? Who betrayed whom? I really payed attention to the plot, etc., but after his conversation with Fiedler, at the trial scene things got a little confusing. Can anyone help me out here? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused1.gif[/img]
[/b]
Im glad that I was not the only one who was confused!

And I have seen this film three or four times.

regards piroflip
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Old 17-02-2006, 11:46 PM
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MASSIVE spoilers:

Complex double bluff!

Our man pretends to defect. He's dealing with the Oskar Werner character (Fiedler) who's debriefing him for the reds. Werner, reading between the lines, comes to believe that Mundt is a traitor who's been feeding info to the west. The more Burton insists this couldn't be, or he'd have known, the more Fiedler becomes convinced. Fiedler is ambitious and wants to believe this so he can overturn his boss.

At the trial, sudden new info seems to clear Mundt, which turns suspicion on Fiedler. He's arrested, since it's assumed by his side that he's a traitor: why else would he have tried to destrot the innocent Mundt?

Burton, who has grown to like Fiedler, is shocked. Mundt really is a British spy, and Burton's defection, including Claire Bloom's following him to the East, has all been an elaborate ruse by Smiley et al to protect Mundt from the too-clever Fiedler. By incriminating Mundt and then comprehensively clearing him, and discrediting Fiedler, they protect their man in the field. Burton was a crucial element in this gambit but even he didn't know this was the true purpose of his mission. Mundt then helps Burton and Bloom make an escape attempt.

Still confused? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong!
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Old 18-02-2006, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
(D Cairns @ Feb 17 2006, 11:46 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
MASSIVE spoilers:

Complex double bluff!

Our man pretends to defect. He's dealing with the Oskar Werner character (Fiedler) who's debriefing him for the reds. Werner, reading between the lines, comes to believe that Mundt is a traitor who's been feeding info to the west. The more Burton insists this couldn't be, or he'd have known, the more Fiedler becomes convinced. Fiedler is ambitious and wants to believe this so he can overturn his boss.

At the trial, sudden new info seems to clear Mundt, which turns suspicion on Fiedler. He's arrested, since it's assumed by his side that he's a traitor: why else would he have tried to destrot the innocent Mundt?

Burton, who has grown to like Fiedler, is shocked. Mundt really is a British spy, and Burton's defection, including Claire Bloom's following him to the East, has all been an elaborate ruse by Smiley et al to protect Mundt from the too-clever Fiedler. By incriminating Mundt and then comprehensively clearing him, and discrediting Fiedler, they protect their man in the field. Burton was a crucial element in this gambit but even he didn't know this was the true purpose of his mission. Mundt then helps Burton and Bloom make an escape attempt.

Still confused? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong!
[/b]

well,,,,,,,,thanks for clearing that up.

I will pay more attention when it next appears.


regards piroflip
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Old 07-03-2008, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Cairns View Post
MASSIVE spoilers:

Complex double bluff!

Our man pretends to defect. He's dealing with the Oskar Werner character (Fiedler) who's debriefing him for the reds. Werner, reading between the lines, comes to believe that Mundt is a traitor who's been feeding info to the west. The more Burton insists this couldn't be, or he'd have known, the more Fiedler becomes convinced. Fiedler is ambitious and wants to believe this so he can overturn his boss.

At the trial, sudden new info seems to clear Mundt, which turns suspicion on Fiedler. He's arrested, since it's assumed by his side that he's a traitor: why else would he have tried to destrot the innocent Mundt?

Burton, who has grown to like Fiedler, is shocked. Mundt really is a British spy, and Burton's defection, including Claire Bloom's following him to the East, has all been an elaborate ruse by Smiley et al to protect Mundt from the too-clever Fiedler. By incriminating Mundt and then comprehensively clearing him, and discrediting Fiedler, they protect their man in the field. Burton was a crucial element in this gambit but even he didn't know this was the true purpose of his mission. Mundt then helps Burton and Bloom make an escape attempt.

Still confused? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong!
Sorry to drag this up, all that makes sense to me but for one thing - when Leamas is straddling the Berlin wall at the end, why do the wall guards shout through a loudspeaker - ''Please go back to your own side, Mr Leamas.' How would they know who he is, what he was doing there?
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Old 07-03-2008, 05:32 PM
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Sorry to drag this up, all that makes sense to me but for one thing - when Leamas is straddling the Berlin wall at the end, why do the wall guards shout through a loudspeaker - ''Please go back to your own side, Mr Leamas.' How would they know who he is, what he was doing there?
The guards were set up to allow the 'escape'. Leamas was told to look for the relevant pattern of the searchlight (or whatever the signal was). The guards were briefed to shoot the woman, but let Leamas go..... But if Leamas didn't go, they were briefed to shoot him too, so that Mundt would not be exposed.


Who was going to shoot the guard to stop him telling....... will have to wait for the sequel.........

! Let me out !

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Old 07-03-2008, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Moor Larkin View Post
The guards were set up to allow the 'escape'. Leamas was told to look for the relevant pattern of the searchlight (or whatever the signal was). The guards were briefed to shoot the woman, but let Leamas go..... But if Leamas didn't go, they were briefed to shoot him too, so that Mundt would not be exposed.


Who was going to shoot the guard to stop him telling....... will have to wait for the sequel.........

! Let me out !
Thanks, if that is the case it stretches the plot a little beyond credibility for me.

I considered an alternative, more shocking setup, that East and West joined forces to remove the Jewish Feidler, therefore an anti-semitic conspiracy. But that still leaves Mundt, unless... you could go on forever.

Le Carre has a habit of turning super-powers on human fallibility - I'm sure I'm missing a very human moment in this film which would make it a lot easier for me.

Oscar Werner was tremendous as Feidler.
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:55 PM
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I'm no expert but I think the premise that spys and secret agents were just scumbags was the main point of the whole thing. The plot was labyrinthine. I found the only bit that felt really false was the ability of Mundt to release Burton and Bloom in such a casual way; but that was purely from a practical point of view of access to a prison in East Germany (which I know nothing about either).

It put paid to idealists like John Drake, that's for sure. Secret Agents had to become spoofery after that.


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Old 08-03-2008, 12:27 AM
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It put paid to idealists like John Drake, that's for sure. Secret Agents had to become spoofery after that.

Agreed,..or down at heal cynics like Harry Palmer, well at least for his first two cinematic outings.
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Old 08-03-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Cairns View Post
MASSIVE spoilers:

Complex double bluff!

Our man pretends to defect. He's dealing with the Oskar Werner character (Fiedler) who's debriefing him for the reds. Werner, reading between the lines, comes to believe that Mundt is a traitor who's been feeding info to the west. The more Burton insists this couldn't be, or he'd have known, the more Fiedler becomes convinced. Fiedler is ambitious and wants to believe this so he can overturn his boss.

At the trial, sudden new info seems to clear Mundt, which turns suspicion on Fiedler. He's arrested, since it's assumed by his side that he's a traitor: why else would he have tried to destrot the innocent Mundt?

Burton, who has grown to like Fiedler, is shocked. Mundt really is a British spy, and Burton's defection, including Claire Bloom's following him to the East, has all been an elaborate ruse by Smiley et al to protect Mundt from the too-clever Fiedler. By incriminating Mundt and then comprehensively clearing him, and discrediting Fiedler, they protect their man in the field. Burton was a crucial element in this gambit but even he didn't know this was the true purpose of his mission. Mundt then helps Burton and Bloom make an escape attempt.

Still confused? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong!

good explanation, great book and film
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