'It's no wonder nobody watches British films'

[smudge]

"...second rate...." ?

Too generous by half, surely ! :)

SMUDGE

[Cheeky Bob]

Like it or not, reality is that the majority of British films made today are aimed towards the American market.

...because unless they have an extremely low budget, they have to be. Although cinema audiences have improved since the all-time low of 1984, they're still running at about a tenth of what they were in the 1940s, which means that some level of international appeal is vital if they're to stand a chance of breaking even.

The US and India are self-sustaining because they have huge domestic markets, and Hong Kong films play all over south-east Asia (and, increasingly, mainland China - the biggest market of them all). We can't compete with that in the UK market alone, so we have to think globally.

So the challenge for producers is to ensure that elements designed to make a film more playable in the international marketplace don't become so obvious that they unbalance the project as a whole. We've all seen countless British films pretending to be American - usually not very convincingly, so they fall between two stools, appealing to neither British nor American audiences.

Personally, I'm much more convinced by situations like the one in Creep - a UK/German co-production that's set in London but with a German lead actress. Although it's obvious why Franka Potente was cast in the lead, the filmmakers don't try to hide her nationality - the fact that she's German, and therefore less familiar with London than a native, actually works in the film's favour. More importantly, her presence above the title opens up the film to the German market, which is bigger than the UK market, and where they don't mind dubbing.

(I'm certainly not trying to claim that Creep is some kind of unsung classic, but what it does it does very well, and it's exactly the kind of film we need to be making in order to build a sustainable industry).

[DB7]

Originally Posted by Cheeky Bob So the challenge for producers is to ensure that elements designed to make a film more playable in the international marketplace don't become so obvious that they unbalance the project as a whole.

I'm not sure it's that simple. If you look at some of the big successes of the past decade or more like Trainspotting, The Full Monty, Billy Elliott, Secrets and Lies and Lock Stock they often featured virtual unknowns (or people more noted for their tv work) and there was no inclination towards making them acceptable to overseas markets; had that been an issue Danny Boyle and Guy Ritchie would have opted for actors with watered down accents. Boyle is especially interesting as despite using DV and the then unknown Cilliam Murphy he still knocked out a film that produced $50m+ profit. Bottom line is that if the film is strong enough people overseas will check it out. (in the way Croupier flopped here but was a sleeper hit Stateside)

[Wolfgang]

One thing they all have in common is that they are all very good films, so it is no surprise that they had breakthrough potential - success for British films here is more analogous with successful foreign language films. I think you would arrive at incorrect conclusion if you were to attempt to derive prescription for making successful British film from them. Cultural imperialism is nothing new - it just seems to be natural phenomenon we have seen with all superpowers that have risen. Great Britain virtually invented worldwide sport while it had its empire with golf, tennis, cricket and football. Some countries are afforded natural protection by having their own languages, but I think it is more complex than economics or some underlying problem with Britain's film industry. Take music for example - since The Beatles, American artists have enjoyed more success in Great Britain than vice versa. History shows us that we gravitate towards success technologically, economically, idealogically and culturally. Maybe this is some form of sociological evolution so our species keeps advancing, and your underlying problem with your film industry.

[Cheeky Bob]

If you look at some of the big successes of the past decade or more like Trainspotting, The Full Monty, Billy Elliott, Secrets and Lies and Lock Stock they often featured virtual unknowns (or people more noted for their tv work) and there was no inclination towards making them acceptable to overseas markets.

But these were all very low budget films, and none of them was expected at the time to be particularly successful. Andrew Macdonald originally said he'd be delighted if Trainspotting grossed half what Shallow Grave did, as he thought it was far less commercially appealing. During shooting, the cast and crew of The Full Monty were taking bets as to whether or not it would even manage a TV sale as they were so pessimistic about its chances. I'm sure similar anecdotes abound for the other three.

Fluke hits are great, but they're no basis on which to build a consistently successful industry. Not least because the profits generally end up overseas - Four Weddings and The Full Monty being good examples.

[WiseFilms]

How nice it is to hear people sticking up for their native cinema!...I can't imagine it happening here... where there's only three kinds of decent movies, essentially, that get distribution deals: (1) the films of long-revered Star directors, who are given carte blanch, and a guaranteed following : Clint, Woody, Joel & Ethan, Albert Brooks, etc. ; (2) those by cult icons Jim Jarmusch, Alexander Payne, John Sayles and others, who are content to pick up the scraps of box office they can find; (3) and the rare new "indie" film that isn't intended solely as as springboard for a Hollywood contract. The last one of that kind I saw was over a year ago (You and Me and Everyone We Know)...

How this Julien Fellows can get on his high horse and say -among other absurdities- 'the French watch French films....British watch American films' --this is typical of the kind of whining many filmmakers engaged in during the "New Hollywood" era (1966-1981, RIP) . I don't mean your British films are in any sort of Renaissance, it's only a transitional period --nothing markedly different than what's going on everywhere with movies. Everything is becoming worse and less imaginative -yes- which is fine with hacks like Fellows so long as he gets his finger in the pie.
It won't be too long for the next Leigh, or Roeg, or Sunset Song, or Something to come along, to stave off what is becoming one of the worst filmic draughts in memory. Everyone sees American movies, or whatever they are used to, and the greatest impediment put before ANY movies success -be it good or not- is lack of exposure.
DVD is a safety net for a film by a major studio, but it is shamefully being accepted as a marketing strategy for Little films (by such major directors as Hou Hsaio-hsien, Eric Rohmer, Nanni Moretti).
If more directors could go from making li'l sleepers like Billy Elliot, and turn around to make a masterpiece like The Hours, I would understand the desire for mainstream success. To pursue it at the cost of whatever credibility you had is foolish.
Just when I thought Tarantino had finally confirmed himself as a vital force of good in movies (Jackie Brown), he sits on his ass for seven years and comes back with a double-barreled assault on the intelligence called Kill Bill, which had a few Moments in the first installment... however --the rest was overwhelmingly pretentious and indicative of the worst of De Palma, Woo, Stone, and it's sad to say , Soderberg , too.

It's easy to look on the dark or light sides, yet straight down the line : Cinema is Approaching Extinction, at least for anyone still holding out for the Next Lean, or Hitchcock, or anyone who might sustainably inject some originality and quality into the films that any-old-body can see.
And, no, I don't mean 'Like Gossford Park'. Mediocrity with pedigree is still a ghastly thing.

[samkydd]

Originally Posted by DB7 'Depressing and dispiriting… it's no wonder nobody watches British films' Chris Hastings, Arts and Media Editor (Filed: 02/07/2006) The British film industry produces depressing and dispiriting films which nobody wants to watch, one of the country's leading screenwriters claimed last night.

Commercially it seems that box office success through countless remakes of films and old TV shows-to-cinema efforts relying on familiarity and nostalgia to get people through the doors, plus pretty looking actors and actresses with gossip column fame who can't play any character but themselves, is what matters to the film industry. Playing it safe and anticipating huge profits by conning people is the name of the game, and for those who missed the film at the flicks? Well 50% of the film industry's profits come from DVD sales so some poor sod will receive a copy on Christmas Day and it'll be in the charity shop by January 2nd!

It's like a mirror image of the music industry, why bother promoting talent when you can get some solo artist with a silly name to churn out cover versions of once great hits, or boy/girl blands that can't write songs, or play any instruments but look the part and dance and prance and mime and look trendy enough to attract a profitable following amongst the kids?

Originality is a dirty word in film and music, and until you replace accountants with people with creativity and vision this second-hand culture will continue until cinemas start to close and the pop charts become merely download statistics for sales of musak!

I'm not saying all modern commercial films and music are crap, it just takes a lot longer these days to find something worth watching or listening to. There seem to be more Miss Congenialitys than Miss Jean Brodies!

The way forward for smaller film makers would be to release straight to DVD and have a film charts, after all you don't need to see a band live to buy their album so why do you have to go to a cinema to see a film? With modern download technology and marketing it would offer the film choice that many people crave and allow up and coming directors and writers to get in through the back door, and who knows, this may even impact positively on the mainstream industry by effectively squeezing them out until they start taking their craft seriously!

[WiseFilms]

Couldn't disagree with you more, samkydd, on the analogy with band/CD, movie/DVD. Seeing a film in the theaters is the only way to fairly appreciate it's merit, assuming it has any.
That "way forward" is a route that appears inevitable for all but the most obstinate hold-outs (Philippe Garrell, Robbe-Grillet, and other pure independents among their dwindeling ranks). I fear the day when the museums offer the only way to watch a recent film properly.

[samkydd]

Unfortunately the cinema experience in the UK these days is not like it was. It's expensive, soul less, uncomfortable and clinically dead and when you get out you have to try and get home without being attacked by chavs on public transport, or if driving, hope and pray that your car still where you left it parked! There isn't even an organist at the cinema these days!

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by samkydd Unfortunately the cinema experience in the UK these days is not like it was. It's expensive, soul less, uncomfortable and clinically dead and when you get out you have to try and get home without being attacked by chavs on public transport, or if driving, hope and pray that your car still where you left it parked! There isn't even an organist at the cinema these days!

Choose your cinema better. Don't go to the soulless megaplex in the soulless city centre at night. There are some good cinemas out there, but you might have to hunt around for them and not just go to the ones that spend most on advertising.

Steve

[merryowen]

Originally Posted by David Brent Water down the storylines, blow up a few cars, introduce American "stars" and you have a bigger budget and distribution access. Only thing is that this type of film is usually rubbish.

True enough, but most of us enjoy rubbish.

When I want to be entertained I look to the movies: when I want a sermon I go to church.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by merryowen True enough, but most of us enjoy rubbish. When I want to be entertained I look to the movies: when I want a sermon I go to church.

Where do you go to learn things? Or have you given up on that?
And what about an emotional experience?
There are many stages between pure escapist entertainment and preach sermons.

Steve

[ChristineCB]

I'm dotty about this overseas market thing. Explain how film-makers "target overseas markets".

In FISH CALLED WANDA, two American actors were inserted because of their name value - ?? That's what I assumed at the time, because neither of them seemed particularly relevant to the storyline - I don't remember the thieves planned their getaway to the wilds of Arizona. (Maybe that was a long lost deleted scene?)

But, if inserting one country's actors is all it takes, aren't every other international market equally shunned for excluding their actors? I don't recall the French or Germans banning WANDA. It seems if inserting one country's actors guarantees that international market, it might equally shun others.

Or is the "targeting" a fund allocation process? "We have ten million budgeted for marketing, so we'll spend five in this country and five elsewhere."

Then there are films targeted for homeland consumption but their success allows them to allocate marketing into new markets later?

But I don't consider that "targeting for overseas" as "hoping..."

Can you explain what's meant by filmmakers who "target for overseas market"?

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by ChristineCB Can you explain what's meant by filmmakers who "target for overseas market"?

It means "targeted at the American market" where there's no (or not much) problem with differences in the language and where there are a lot of people.

I don't know of any British films that are targetted at the European or any other world markets. Maybe a few that have things like the Indian market in mind.

Steve

[merryowen]

Originally Posted by samkydd Unfortunately the cinema experience in the UK these days is not like it was. It's expensive, soul less, uncomfortable and clinically dead and when you get out you have to try and get home without being attacked by chavs on public transport, or if driving, hope and pray that your car still where you left it parked! There isn't even an organist at the cinema these days!

Very true.

Most cinemas these days are no better than weenies heavens, where you can't hear the sound track for the mating cries of pimply bummed thirteen year olds.

The alternative is to follow Steve's advice and visit the local Temperance Hall, where the East Grungthorpe Film Appreciation Society is showing a movie whose only virtue is that its budget was so low that the producer still had change left over from his giro cheque.