AndrewLA

Just to play devil's advocate, I'll risk having cabbages thrown at me and question some of the suggested titles:

A KID FOR TWO FARTHINGS -- utterly charming comedy-drama with fantasy elements. No crime or sense of "dark" elements of human behaviour -- and crime is an essential part of noir, isn't it?

ROBBERY -- good movie, but more a procedural, cross-cutting cops and robbers. Could have been a noir, I suppose, but it didn't go very deep or stylishly into psychology or fate or doomed characters.

A PRIZE OF ARMS -- fairly conventional "caper that goes wrong." Like most of the Warwicks, not much complexity (still entertaing though).

THE SEVENTH VEIL, THE SMALL BACK ROOM -- more psychological dramas than noir, I'd say. Again, no crime. (I love those giant whiskey bottles in ROOM; I'd originally seen the film in an edited version without them, then attended a restored screening -- almost fell out of my chair. Very brave stylistic flourish.)

THE CLOUDED YELLOW -- maybe this one squeezes through on a technicality. It could and maybe should have been a noir, but the treatment is a bit too "cosy" for me. Perfect noir set-up, with a captivating Jean Simmons supposedly mentally disturbed by discovering her dead parents years ago, now accused of murders actually committed by her uncle. A failed secret service agent who helps her. The actors are fine, but imagine if they'd been written and directed to play more along the lines of LAURA, like Gene Tierney and Clifton Webb and Dana Andrews, who all had fate branded on their foreheads, and Otto Preminger instead of Ralph Thomas -- how different that would have been. I do like THE CLOUDED YELLOW, but it's mostly a light, highly engaging murder-mystery with no real "darkness" in it. When you have Kenneth More as the pursuer (instead of someone like Richard Boone or Dan Duryea), you're just not going to get a real noir.

Not being critical at all here -- these are all fascinating choices that made me stop and think just exactly what a noir is. I'm not even sure I know...

Steve Crook

Isn't dropping boody-trapped devices a crime? :

Steve

AndrewLA

Only under that pesky English law. Not according to a certain A. Hitler.

ChristineCB

I'm not certain if crime is required. I think there have to be Bad People doing Bad Things. Or Good People going Bad Things. But crime itself?

The crime of Harry Lime is even acknowledged to be minor except for its scope and to its victims, as Trevor points out, and as Holly understands. But it's still a relatively minor crime - if ONLY Harry had gotten a hold of some pesky little WMDs... gosh! If only...

Of course, they seemed to require the Girl do something bad, too - the almost vacuous crime of slipping across borders without proper paperwork - woo hoo! Gee - I'll bet she was really a hijacker looked for Boenig pilot lessons!

Compare those "crimes" to many other noir films, and it's a puny film about puny people doing puny crimes.

I think all of these small things, however, raises INTO the noir greatness, however. I think Noir almost requires small stories about puny people that explode out of their limits into "decent society" - that's what brings the big headlines instead of "2 killed in typical bar fight in typical rundown neighborhood".

In THE KILLING with Burt Lancaster, the real evil-doer isn't the guys duking it out - it's Ava Gardner, pitting everyone against each other BECAUSE SHE CAN. The crime group's robbery is secondary - she doesn't care about the Crime - she only wants to twist all the males into getting a lot of money, and she'll take off with it. She's willing to take one of them with her - she doesn't care who or IF one survives.

But she's the real Bad Person in that film. Her crime? She wants money to do what she wants. GW could get convicted of greater crimes.

AndrewLA

Interesting argument. Sexual obsession is a big part of many noirs while crime and violence can be minor -- but I still think crime is still required in some way or other. Noir needs desperate people, and people who commit crimes are pretty desperate. So you don't have to spend much time on the back story of the characters. Criminals, loose women, seedy private eyes and cops, wealthy folks with guilty secrets -- these are people you can believe live in the shadows.

Not that crime is the only element. You also need things like alienated characters struggling to survive, a femme fatale, paranoia, darkness in the sense of a dark psychological mood (even if you consciously invert that to CHINATOWN's sunny California), hard-boiled sensibility, twists of fate in an irrational world, etc. The post-WW2 era with its threat of the Atomic Bomb was the perfect time and setting.

Do they really believe it's minor? Howard doesn't think so. And Cotton goes through a whole transformation because of his disgust with his old friend's behavior. I don't think you can simply count the number of killings. There's only one murder in DOUBLE INDEMNITY (well, until the end), but those two suffer much more than Harry Lime does, and he's responsible for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands.

I agree. The more "ordinary" the people, the more universal the stories.

Absolutely. That's why relatively straight-forward capers (like PRIZE OF GOLD or SEVEN THIEVES or ROBBERY) don't really make the cut as noirs. But in THE KILLING, the crime allows everyone, including Ava, the opportunity to cut loose and cause a lot of physical and psychological damage. He's doomed, she's corrupt. But without that crime, and the undercurrent of violence, there wouldn't be a story for them to plunge into a kind of spiritual darkness and play out their destinies.

Not many British films do all that!

howard 65

THE KILLING starred STERLING HAYDEN.

The film you are talking about is THE KILLERS!

ChristineCB

THE KILLING, yes - just a typo - with Sterling Hayden, one of my all-time favorites. THE KILLERS with Ava Gardner is perhaps my favorite Bad Girl character. Kathleen Turner is a piker in comparison... although she did end up on a tropical island being served by native men. Ahem...

I think the argument of "needs crime" wins. MALTESE FALCON without the killings? Then it would only been a theft of a collector's item? A few break-ins over the centuries? Hardly noteworthy, although the film could have been just as wonderful.

Except...

How could the ending have been as neatly tied up without Bogart's confrontation of that dastardly Mary Astor at the end. "Miles wasn't a sap enough to get trapped up a dead-end alley by the guy he was tailing with his gun still in his holster. But he was just foolish enough to let you, Darling, get as close to him as you wanted."

To say nothing of Captain Jacoby's shooting and staggering into the late night office. And that fire ("Wilmer was no doubt careless with matches...").

I think I'll vote "Crime Required", albeit small or large.

AndrewLA

Terrific little movie with a wonderful cast of old pros. I think Kubrick was a much better director in the studio era than during his later days. THE KILLING and SPARTACUS will be remembered long after EYES WIDE SHUT and even 2001 are forgotten. And one reason THE KILLING will endure is that other great femme fatale, Marie Windsor. She's spectacular here. If ever a woman deserved a bullet, she did.

I was trying to think of a noir without a crime. It's tough.

NIGHTMARE ALLEY? The crime there would be deception, not so bad, though Tyrone Power ends up being rather severely punished -- a "geek.'

Maybe I WAS A FUGITIVE FROM A CHAIN GANG -- the whole thing there hinges on Muni not actually committing a crime, but being unfairly found guilty and punished by hard labor, which destroys his life. Of course, he does end up stealing.

NIGHT AND THE CITY -- the crimes are pretty minor, more corruption in the wrestling game, but they trigger a dark murderous ending. That's British -- but can't think of any other British variations...

ChristineCB

Ah yes, the "corruption" films. Bogart has one called DEADLINE or something that's pretty good. I don't recall any crimes per se - I'm sure there are, but it's a corruption and power-struggle kind of film. Maybe my lack of distinct memory says more about the film's inability to stay with me because there wasn't a single big crime (BLUE DAHLIA, another newspaper film about a reporter trying to get a scoop on a murder).

NIGHT AND THE CITY and all of those small crimes and small people and small films seem to stick more to the soul of the genre, in my mind. OCEANS 11 could very well fit into a lot of those characteristics - small gang of ex-Army types, get together to commit a really big crime. Yet, somehow, the film's splashiness and superstars overwhelm the genre. "I remember it's a film about a crime, but is it a comedy? Cesar Romero laughing hysterically? The money being burned up with the coffin?"

NIGHT AND THE CITY strikes the noir chord so much more clearly.

I think OCEANS 11 is a great little story - a la THE KILLING - except that Hollywood couldn't resist the Blockbuster Scenario. Huge cast, even in remake. And that's OK - they're fun films. Maybe Sinatra figured he'd done his bit for noir films (the excellent SUDDENLY).

ChristineCB

Sorry - I don't know any of these films and I wanted to repeat them for my list of Must See's...

Thanks for the great little tidbits ("...when you have Kenneth More instead of Dan Duryea...") because those can be great points to debate. I love reading these comments that always make me hate missing these films!

I certainly typecast More as some military chap, hard-bitten and by-the-books, but his physical style seems perfect for a sinister type - at least in my imagination. However, in running down his IMDB list, I haven't seen any of his films where he's taken on such a sinister role. Thanks to you, now I've got a title to search for!

The_Late_Peter_Cook

But does there need to be a crime in a Noir movie? Can't it be just a state of mind? I mean, to me the world of THE OCTOBER MAN (for example) is a 'Noir' world long before Kay Walsh turns up strangled.

Of course, Film Noir is notorously the genre which you can't quite define but you know one when you see it. So to me THE SMALL BACK ROOM is Noir, while a movie of a similar vintage such as THE WOODEN HORSE is just a war movie.

I could go further and say that BLACK NARCESSIUS (I'm not sure of the spelling) is a Noir, due to the Sister Ruth character, even though it's made in colour and set in India. Also a horror movie such as DEAD OF NIGHT can be a Noir (in my eyes), for example the Redgrave story has a lot in comon with Noir.

AndrewLA

He's not sinister at all, more a "by the book" character, as you say. An agent doing his job by tracking another agent (Howard) he always liked and respected. I'm a huge Kenneth More fan, even more so after seeing him in THE FORSYTE SAGA. True, he plays a totally good and decent and kind man, Young Jolyson, but in a number of individual scenes, he plays pain and anger in a way he never did in movies. He would have been a natural for Chekhov in the theatre.

oldfilmy

I would tend to agree that Dead of Night is Noir with the dream flashbacks, overall dark themes and stilted shadows through the cell bars.

Noir is elusive; it has the ability to change like a chameleon and defy categorization.

Not all mysteries are Noir--but Noir can involve mystery.
Not all crimes are Noir--but Noir can involve criminal elements.

Could a "brooding" downbeat drama qualify as Noir? Why not!

Noir film settings can be urban or rural. Indoors or outdoors. Day or night. But 'atmosphere' is a requirement.

Sinister; Menacing; Psychological; Dark/Shadowy all define Noir, but each on their own do not make a Noir movie. It would seem that several have to combine and work off each other, then things start to happen.

Steve Crook

There'a a Wikipedia article that argues a similar case saying that even colour films cn be "noir"

Steve

Redstar

3 excellent British crime thrillers with seedy real life locations.

Shop at Sly Corner 1947 starring Oskar Homolka, Kenneth Griffith, Derek Farr and an uncredited Diana Dors.

Pool of London 1951 starring Bonar Colleano, Earl Cameron, Moira Lister, host of others. Filmed on loaction around London Docklands and Camberwell Green.

Jigsaw 1962 starring Jack Warner as a detective in a seedy Brighton, very atmospheric British film noir.

If anyone knows where I can lay my hands on any DVD's or videos of these films please let me know.

Richard.