Swearing And Nudity

[samkydd]

A post to test the memories of all and sundry! When did nudity (not sex films but in general release productions) and swearing ie. the "f" and "c" words become acceptable in British films?



I first heard the "f" word in The Life of Brian. I think it's fine in context, but the over usage in certain films just shows a poor range of vocabulary by whoever wrote the script. The problem is that it soon becomes acceptable and "the norm" and then kids use expletives all the time in front of adults, and TV now is showing no fear at all! We used to swear a lot as kids but never within earshot of adults.



As for nudity, I once saw a black and white film from the early 60s on TV when a naked woman walked from the bathroom across a doorway and you saw about 3 seconds of buttock. Probably the Carry On Camping brief topless flash was the earliest I can remember, and I didn't see that until it came on the telly.



As kids we often watched sub-titled French films on BBC 2 because you were guaranteed a bit of nudity, and some of those went right back to the late 1950s.



Can anyone recall their first time seeing it in a British film?

[Steve Crook]

(samkydd @ Nov 29 2005, 01:28 PM)

A post to test the memories of all and sundry! When did nudity (not sex films but in general release productions) and swearing ie. the "f" and "c" words become acceptable in British films?



I first heard the "f" word in The Life of Brian. I think it's fine in context, but the over usage in certain films just shows a poor range of vocabulary by whoever wrote the script. The problem is that it soon becomes acceptable and "the norm" and then kids use expletives all the time in front of adults, and TV now is showing no fear at all! We used to swear a lot as kids but never within earshot of adults.



As for nudity, I once saw a black and white film from the early 60s on TV when a naked woman walked from the bathroom across a doorway and you saw about 3 seconds of buttock. Probably the Carry On Camping brief topless flash was the earliest I can remember, and I didn't see that until it came on the telly.



As kids we often watched sub-titled French films on BBC 2 because you were guaranteed a bit of nudity, and some of those went right back to the late 1950s.



Can anyone recall their first time seeing it in a British film?

Nudity in films (including British ones) goes way back into the dim and distant.

Quite a few of the old silent films had nudity, sometimes male nudity but usually female, and that was quite acceptable for mainstream audiences at the time.

It was only in the 1930s that people got prudish about it.



Steve

[DB7]

(samkydd @ Nov 29 2005, 01:28 PM)



Can anyone recall their first time seeing it in a British film?

My guess would be the sexploitation films of the late 60s to early 70s if we're talking mainstream cinema, tho some of the early 60s crime films may have been colourful.



Think Kenneth Tynan took the honours for first expletive on TV.

[samkydd]

(DB7 @ Nov 29 2005, 02:01 PM)

My guess would be the sexploitation films of the late 60s to early 70s if we're talking mainstream cinema, tho some of the early 60s crime films may have been colourful.



Think Kenneth Tynan took the honours for first expletive on TV.

Does the film censor dictate what is acceptable, or is he swayed by public opinion and changing times?

[Steve Crook]

(samkydd @ Nov 29 2005, 02:04 PM)

Does the film censor dictate what is acceptable, or is he swayed by public opinion and changing times?

From the The BBFC site:



Cinema

The British Board of Film Censors was established in 1912 by the film industry when local authorities started to impose their own, widely varying, censorship standards on films.



The Board was set up in order to bring a degree of uniformity to those standards. The object was to create a body which could make judgements that were acceptable nationally.



Statutory powers on film remain with the local councils, which may overrule any of the Board's decisions, passing films we reject, banning films we have passed, and even waiving cuts, instituting new ones, or altering categories for films exhibited under their own licensing jurisdiction. However, by the mid 1920's it had become general practice for local authorities to accept the decisions of the Board.



Video

In 1984 Parliament passed the Video Recordings Act. This act stated that, subject to certain exemptions, video recordings offered for sale or hire commercially in the UK must be classified by an authority designated by the Home Secretary. The following year the President and Vice Presidents of the BBFC were so designated, and charged with applying the new test of 'suitability for viewing in the home'. At this point the Board's title was changed to British Board of Film Classification to reflect the fact that classification plays a far larger part in the Board's work than censorship.



Steve

[Diane Blackwell]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the F word was first used in the fillum "I'll never forget Whatsisname" - by Marianne Faithfull, surprise surprise. Can this be confirmed (or condemned as rubbish!) by someone?

[Hugo]

The British Board of film Censors accepted in 1968 that the the naked human body was not obscene.

The film which led to this was the Swedish movie HUGS AND KISSES.

The first mainstream British film to show an unerotic full frontal shot of a girl was Lindsay Anderson's IF (1968)

[DB7]

(samkydd @ Nov 29 2005, 02:04 PM)



Does the film censor dictate what is acceptable, or is he swayed by public opinion and changing times?

That'll be James Ferman who was a fairly controversial figure. In his defence censorship would have been a catch 22 situation; film-makers wanting to push the boundaries vs Mary Whitehouse and The Daily Mail wanting to protect us from sliding into the abyss. In the end I seem to recall it was the Home Secretary that eased him from office so I suppose the real moral guardians are the government. Now there's an irony.

[Steve Crook]

(Hugo @ Nov 29 2005, 02:46 PM)

The British Board of film Censors accepted in 1968 that the the naked human body was not obscene.

The film which led to this was the Swedish movie HUGS AND KISSES.

The first mainstream British film to show an unerotic full frontal shot of a girl was Lindsay Anderson's IF (1968)

Unless you look back as far as films like L'Inferno (1911) - a British/Italian co-production. That had full frontal male & female nudity.



Steve

[samkydd]

(Steve Crook @ Nov 29 2005, 02:57 PM)

Unless you look back as far as films like L'Inferno (1911) - a British/Italian co-production. That had full frontal male & female nudity.



Steve

I never realised it went back so far. I was always under the impression that in Edwardian times you were lucky to see a bit of ankle and that was your lot!



I'd forgotten about If but again it was one of those films I didn't see until it was on the box when I was all growed up.

[Ascoyne D'Ascoyne]

"What the Butler Saw" 1950, which features the delightful Michael Ward in a role which lasts longer than his usual 10 second appearance, has a tropical-island Princess running about an English country house starkers in one scene. Of course all the "naughty bits" are concealed by the camera angles, but I guess this must have been considered pretty hot stuff in those days.

I share Sam Kydd's distaste for the overuse of the Fword in movies and on TV. I believe the first one to come out with it on TV was Kenneth Tynan on a "nationwide"-type programme in the 1960s. Since then all the naughty little boys can't stop saying it.

[Darling]

(Diane Blackwell @ Nov 29 2005, 02:30 PM)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the F word was first used in the fillum "I'll never forget Whatsisname" - by Marianne Faithfull, surprise surprise. Can this be confirmed (or condemned as rubbish!) by someone?

It's often cited as the first apparently but, if so, it shares the honour with the film "Ulysses" (based on James Joyce's book) released in the same year. Ulysses was released in the U.K. in June 1967 and I'll Never Forget What's'isname in December 1967, so that makes Ulysses the winner out of the two.



Marianne Faithfull's character, Josie, says "Get out of here, you f****** b*****d!"

[Stephen Pickard]

(Diane Blackwell @ Nov 29 2005, 02:30 PM)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the F word was first used in the fillum "I'll never forget Whatsisname" - by Marianne Faithfull, surprise surprise. Can this be confirmed (or condemned as rubbish!) by someone?

Diane, I agree with you and believe this was the first film that introduced the 'F' word back in 1967. I was a projectionist at Odeon Cinemas and it was quite a surprise as I recall not hearing it used before this. I think we were well ahead of the US, now I have to try and remember the first US film that used it! I also recall it may possibly have been used in "Here We Go 'Round The Mulberry Bush".



If my memory is not playing tricks on me I think Leslie Phillips used the 'C' word in "Weekend With Lulu" (1961). Can anybody confirm this? I know this does sound unlikely but is it possible the word had a different meaning back then?

(Darling @ Nov 30 2005, 12:18 PM)

It's often cited as the first apparently but, if so, it shares the honour with the film "Ulysses" (based on James Joyce's book) released in the same year. Ulysses was released in the U.K. in June 1967 and I'll Never Forget What's'isname in December 1967, so that makes Ulysses the winner out of the two.



Marianne Faithfull's character, Josie, says "Get out of here, you f****** b*****d!"

Just read this the moment after I submitted my post.

[dylan]

(Hugo @ Nov 29 2005, 02:46 PM

The British Board of film Censors accepted in 1968 that the the naked human body was not obscene.

The film which led to this was the Swedish movie HUGS AND KISSES.

The first mainstream British film to show an unerotic full frontal shot of a girl was Lindsay Anderson's IF (1968)

BLOWUP (1966) had full frontal female nudity.

ONLY TWO CAN PLAY (1962) had full backside nudity by Mai Zetterling (body double?)

In LIVE NOW PLAY LATER (1962) June Richie showed quite a lot in a bath scene.

In THE MASTER OF BALLANTRAE (1953) a gypsy dancer's breasts are prominantly visible beneath her dress (cut from the TV version).



I'm always amused when the American censored version of THE LONG AND THE SHORT AND THE TALL is shown on TV. *b*****d* dissappears but the Yanks obviously don't know what a *Berk* is - although they elected one for President.

(Diane Blackwell @ Nov 29 2005, 02:30 PM)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the F word was first used in the fillum "I'll never forget Whatsisname" - by Marianne Faithfull, surprise surprise. Can this be confirmed (or condemned as rubbish!) by someone?

She shouts *You F**king b*****d!* during the filming of a commercial but the word is not heard because of a car horn.

[Darling]

(DB7 @ Nov 29 2005, 02:01 PM)

Think Kenneth Tynan took the honours for first expletive on TV.

I quite like Tynan's sentiments on the subject (uttered in 1965 on "BBC3").



" Idoubt if there are any rational people to whom the word "f***" would be particularly diabolical, revolting or totally forbidden."



It's a shame that something like this could (and did) spell the end of someone's career in TV, despite the prevailing mores of the time. IMO, that what is deemed offensive is decided for us by others is actually what's offensive and not the use of a particular word, especially since it wasn't intended to be offensive in this case.

[julian_craster]

How about 'The Small World of Sammy Lee' with Anthony Newley c1963



Did Julia Foster appear topless in a stripper scene?

[Ascoyne D'Ascoyne]

(Darling @ Nov 30 2005, 01:31 PM)

I quite like Tynan's sentiments on the subject (uttered in 1965 on "BBC3").



" Idoubt if there are any rational people to whom the word "f***" would be particularly diabolical, revolting or totally forbidden."



It's a shame that something like this could (and did) spell the end of someone's career in TV, despite the prevailing mores of the time. IMO, that what is deemed offensive is decided for us by others is actually what's offensive and not the use of a particular word, especially since it wasn't intended to be offensive in this case.

I don't know what else Tynan said on the subject in the above-mentioned programme; I suspect what he didn't say was that most people over the age of five in the early 1960s had been brought up in an environment where one's mouth was washed out with soap by vengeful schoolmistresses for uttering an oath as mild as "blimey" , so that many people around that time were deeply offended and shocked when he used the F word on a tea-time TV programme.

I can't help thinking that the free use of this word has helped to give rise to a "F**** YOU" mentality where people don't seem to care less who else they might be upsetting by their behaviour.

There is something deeply unpleasant about hearing children, little more than toddlers, using the F word freely-due no doubt to those responsible for their upbringing accepting it as perfectly OK- as I do frequently- living, as I do, on the borders of Essex and East London. Just one of the delightful legacies of ivory-tower intellectuals like Tynan who proliferated back in the 60s.

[samkydd]

(Darling @ Nov 30 2005, 01:31 PM)

I quite like Tynan's sentiments on the subject (uttered in 1965 on "BBC3").



" Idoubt if there are any rational people to whom the word "f***" would be particularly diabolical, revolting or totally forbidden."



It's a shame that something like this could (and did) spell the end of someone's career in TV, despite the prevailing mores of the time. IMO, that what is deemed offensive is decided for us by others is actually what's offensive and not the use of a particular word, especially since it wasn't intended to be offensive in this case.

Why didn't he just say "the "f" word" instead? Would have saved a lot of controversy as well as income!



There was a comedian called Jimmy Jones in the 1970s and he was a bit of a cockney Chubby Brown in that he catered for adult audiences. He used to come on stage and tell everyone at the start of his act that his catchphrase was "Blinking Hell" , which he'd shorten to "k'nell". Then during his gags it would be "k'n this" and "k'n that" and so basically he was using the f word without having to actually say it.

[tonewheel]

I,m pretty sure I first heard Richard Burton use the f word in the 1971 film Villain.He's sat in a car during a robbery and he shouts but not that audibly, Ram the Fu*****. Can any one add to this as I have not watched the film in over 20yrs

[Liger]

(dylan @ Nov 30 2005, 01:20 PM)

BLOWUP (1966) had full frontal female nudity.

ONLY TWO CAN PLAY (1962) had full backside nudity by Mai Zetterling (body double?)

In LIVE NOW PLAY LATER (1962) June Richie showed quite a lot in a bath scene.

In THE MASTER OF BALLANTRAE (1953) a gypsy dancer's breasts are prominantly visible beneath her dress (cut from the TV version).

Here's my small contribution to this depraved catalogue of filth:



I was quite amazed to see a sequence of topless dancing in THE ANGRY HILLS (1959) recently on TCM (when world-wise Stanley Baker takes Leslie Phillips' slightly more shelted character to a local bar in Greece).



Other than the information about versions that I've pasted below (from IMD, I don't know anything about the censorship history of this film, or whether there are toned down versions for some markets and 'hot' versions for others (as there were for so many British films in the '50s and '60s). Perhaps the TCM print is a foreign market one, and we Brits got to see a racey bit of bikini action instead...? Anyone know any more about this one?



From IMDB: "The original running time was 119 minutes before it was edited down to 105 minutes for US release. The European version ran longer. In 2004 the British Film Institute screened a print with a running time of 114 minutes. Director Aldrich felt certain scenes lost their meaning with the trims made."