An American 'communist' in London

[DB7]

Originally Posted by batman Who is Ann Coulter? Bats.

Fox News conservative type.

[batman]

Originally Posted by DB7 Fox News conservative type.

Ta.

Bats.

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by D Cairns Incidentally, HUAC were pretty widely recognised as bad guys since the 1970s, hostory seemed to have made up it's mind.

No argument from me there. It's always interesting to know why they were bad though.

Originally Posted by D Cairns Perhaps any fans she has could declare their allegiance now so that we can all discount their opinions...

OMG! Bring on the HUAC!........

[dylan]

Most of the victims of McCarthy and HUAC (both unconnected) joined the Communist Party in the 30s as a reaction to Nazism and the Depression - they had little interest in Stalin. Many left the CP in the late 30s following the purges and Nazi-Soviet pact. Their persecution had an hidden political agenda with various mediocities jumping on the "Red Scare" bandwagon. There was also a strong anti-Semitic strain to the witch hunt as the trials often emphasized the foreign (or anglised) names of the victims and their background.

At least it led to the best works of Losey, Dassin and others working in Europe.

D.

[D Cairns]

Originally Posted by D Cairns
Perhaps any fans she has could declare their allegiance now so that we can all discount their opinions...
"OMG! Bring on the HUAC!........ "

I thought that would get a reaction. But note that my deliberate echo of HUAC language has a few differences: I'm not going to compel anybody to declare their allegiance (even if I could), and though I wouldn't have respect for the opinions of a Coulter fan, I wouldn't hound them out of the country!

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by D Cairns Originally Posted by D Cairns Perhaps any fans she has could declare their allegiance now so that we can all discount their opinions... "OMG! Bring on the HUAC!........ " I thought that would get a reaction. But note that my deliberate echo of HUAC language has a few differences: I'm not going to compel anybody to declare their allegiance (even if I could), and though I wouldn't have respect for the opinions of a Coulter fan, I wouldn't hound them out of the country!

"Are you now or have you ever been a fan of Ann Coulter?"

Steve

[batman]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook "Are you now or have you ever been a fan of Ann Coulter?" Steve

"No .... but ********** is!"

Bats.

[Moor Larkin]

I was reading that there is a Radio 4 prog on this week, about how Hollywood led America to war. The gist of it being that pro-British movies were being made long before America joined in, in the 'real' world. I'm wondering if the Commies in Hollywood, motivated by anti-facism, helped save the world from Hitlerian tyranny.......

Otherwise what was motivating Hollywood to make these films? Presuming they were popular with American audiences, it also gave me pause to wonder about the view of ordinary Americans as being anti-joining-in-the-war and not being interested in world affairs, outside of their big island.......... Or were they all commies at heart.....

BBC - Radio 4 - When Hollywood Went to War - 13 December 2007

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin I was reading that there is a Radio 4 prog on this week, about how Hollywood led America to war. The gist of it being that pro-British movies were being made long before America joined in, in the 'real' world. I'm wondering if the Commies in Hollywood, motivated by anti-facism, helped save the world from Hitlerian tyranny....... Otherwise what was motivating Hollywood to make these films? Presuming they were popular with American audiences, it also gave me pause to wonder about the view of ordinary Americans as being anti-joining-in-the-war and not being interested in world affairs, outside of their big island.......... Or were they all commies at heart..... BBC - Radio 4 - When Hollywood Went to War - 13 December 2007

There always has been a difference between (most of) those on either coast and those in the "flyover" states in the heartland

Steve

[TimR]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin I was reading that there is a Radio 4 prog on this week, about how Hollywood led America to war. The gist of it being that pro-British movies were being made long before America joined in, in the 'real' world. I'm wondering if the Commies in Hollywood, motivated by anti-facism, helped save the world from Hitlerian tyranny....... Otherwise what was motivating Hollywood to make these films? Presuming they were popular with American audiences, it also gave me pause to wonder about the view of ordinary Americans as being anti-joining-in-the-war and not being interested in world affairs, outside of their big island.......... Or were they all commies at heart..... BBC - Radio 4 - When Hollywood Went to War - 13 December 2007

You are underestimating the respect and admiration for Britain that existed among a surprisingly large number of Americans in 1940.

In addition, a few far-sighted Americans did indeed realize that the defeat of Britain would be an eventual disaster for the US, so pragmatism was a significant part.

The Hollywood moguls of the time tended to be a combination of romantic idealism and greedy ruthlessness. They were also ashamed of their immigrant roots and Britain - especially England - was associated at the time with dignity and tradition. "David Copperfield" and "A Tale of Two Cities" and "The Four Feathers" and "Lives of A Bengal Lancer" were all made well before the war, and all are strongly anglophile.

Outside of Hollywood, there were quite a few people in the general population who hated Hitler, were also adamantly anti-communist - and also loved Britain (not hyperbole) and freedom (not intended in a sentimental way). They were a minority at first, but grew in strength. You might be surprised. My father volunteered well before Pearl Harbor, and my grandparents were strongly pro-Britain and infuriated (and embarrassed) by the isolationism that was a significant part of American life and history - and even self-identification.

The anglophilia among east coast Americans goes back to the beginning of the colonies and the ties of family, education and tradition were still very strong then. I know most of that good will has been lost and most of those ties are very thin or broken, but at the time they were still powerful. Both liberals and conservatives shared those views.

I am not for a moment excusing the failure of Roosevelt's government to come to Britain's aid much more quickly in 1940, or even in 1939. That was a black mark of shame against us. But the blow-by-blow account of the Blitz by Murrow had a profound impact on changing the general American perception as well.

The films of Hollywood were indeed used as open pro-British and pro-French - and even occasionally as pro-Russian - propaganda. "Mrs. Miniver" and "Journey for Margaret" do not hold up very well today as film, but their impact was powerful at the time. Greer Garson was the #1 actress in the US for several years - right up there next to Betty Grable. (Two very different idealized women!)

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by TimR You are underestimating the respect and admiration for Britain that existed among a surprisingly large number of Americans in 1940.

Not me guv. WASPs rule!

Originally Posted by TimR The Hollywood moguls of the time tended to be a combination of romantic idealism and greedy ruthlessness. They were also ashamed of their immigrant roots and Britain - especially England - was associated at the time with dignity and tradition.

But also Imperialism?

Originally Posted by TimR The films of Hollywood were indeed used as open pro-British and pro-French - and even occasionally as pro-Russian - propaganda.

Pro-French......... I missed that one! The problem would have presumably been how to be anti-tyranny, without being anti-German or anti-Italian. I'm guessing that there would be as many of that ancestry in Hollywood as there was British (English).

The popularity of Britain (England) in Hollywood-land seemed perfectly reasonable to me when I was growing up with Errol Flynn beating up the French and the Spanish on my behalf, but now I wonder why it was so. Was it because we were a significant second market for movies, whereas the non-English-speaking world wasn't? How much of the French being so anti-Hollywood is a result of decades of seeing their (Napoleonic) heroes painted as dictatorial tyrants..... or worse - fools!

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin The popularity of Britain (England) in Hollywood-land seemed perfectly reasonable to me when I was growing up with Errol Flynn beating up the French and the Spanish on my behalf, but now I wonder why it was so. Was it because we were a significant second market for movies, whereas the non-English-speaking world wasn't? How much of the French being so anti-Hollywood is a result of decades of seeing their (Napoleonic) heroes painted as dictatorial tyrants..... or worse - fools!

There were some slightly subtle ones like Fire Over England (1937) or That Hamilton Woman (1941) which appeared to be about fighting the Spanish Armada or the importance of defeating Napoleon. But it wasn't too difficult for most people to guess which European dictatorship they were really talking about

Steve

[TimR]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin Not me guv. WASPs rule! But also Imperialism?

Oh yes - but I think the pro-British films of that time were closer in spirit to the late Victorian era than to the Britain of the 1930s.

Have you seen the 1939 "Gunga Din"? It is made in the spirit of Kipling, not in the spirit of Chamberlein. Terrific adventure story. But it seems to have come out of a time warp - say, 1897. There is no trace of irony in is celebration of the British empire, and in the self-sacrifice of Gunga Din himself. The heroics of the British were played absolutely straight.

The same is true of "Wee Willie Winkie", as well as "The Little Princess" which both became vehicles for Shirley Temple. They are both strongly pro-empire.

Pro-French......... I missed that one!

"The Cross of Lorraine" (quite good), "Assignment in Britanny", "Reunion in France" "The Pied Piper" (English Monty Woolley and Roddy McDowell caught in wartime France - France as well as Britain - two birds with one Hollywood stone, as it were...), the pro-French sequences in "Casablanca" (the singing of the Marsellais), parts of "Watch on the Rhine", "Madame Curie" (in a long line of biographies of extraordinary French "The Story of Louis Pasteur", "The Life of Emile Zola")

The problem would have presumably been how to be anti-tyranny, without being anti-German or anti-Italian. I'm guessing that there would be as many of that ancestry in Hollywood as there was British (English).

Well, all of the moguls except Zanuck at Fox were Jewish, mostly from Germany or Russia, and very strongly pro-American - because of their own experiences in the "land of opportunity". As for the German or Italian ancestry issue, that did not seem to have been as important as I would have assumed. It's true that there not that many references to those specific nations in the war films. It is almost always "Nazi" or "fascist".

The popularity of Britain (England) in Hollywood-land seemed perfectly reasonable to me when I was growing up with Errol Flynn beating up the French and the Spanish on my behalf, but now I wonder why it was so. Was it because we were a significant second market for movies, whereas the non-English-speaking world wasn't?

Well, I believe that Britain was the second largest market for films after the home market - and considering the astounding figures of attendance for the 1940s, I am not surprised!

And Americans enjoyed watching Flynn beating up the French and the Spanish (not to mention Guy of Gisbourne!) just as much as you did!

"The Adventures of Robin Hood" and "Captain Blood"!!

How much of the French being so anti-Hollywood is a result of decades of seeing their (Napoleonic) heroes painted as dictatorial tyrants..... or worse - fools!

Well, perhaps - but not before or during the war. I think the French dislike Hollywood because it is vulgar, because it represents cultural competition and because...well, it isn't French....

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook There were some slightly subtle ones like Fire Over England (1937) or That Hamilton Woman (1941) which appeared to be about fighting the Spanish Armada or the importance of defeating Napoleon. But it wasn't too difficult for most people to guess which European dictatorship they were really talking about

Oh I agree, but it's rather like the English watching 'Braveheart'. Mel Gibson was really telling a story of the power of the individual but some found it a bit rude to the English at times, whilst some Scots seemed to see it as a paen to Independence. I would think it reasonable that the Spanish and French might have felt the same, their 'history' being used as a foil for fighting the Nazi's.

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by TimR And Americans enjoyed watching Flynn beating up the French and the Spanish

I have wondered if that related back to the American/Mexican relationship prior to mass immigration across the Rio Bravo and the leavening of the WASP influence. I happened to watch the remake of The Alamo on TV last evening and it was quite odd. The Mexican Army was just like Napoleon's hordes, prim and proper in beautiful uniforms (but no shoes in one scene which seemed odder than odd). The Texans were dirty and unshaven louts. The Texans won but there seemed little rhyme nor reason to how or why. It was as if Hollywood was trying not to be on either side, but relate 'history', but it made very little sense.