Fred Karno - Lilliput

[tali122]

Fred Karno bought an off-licence at Lilliput in Poole,however does anyone know of its exact location , is it still there?- can't seem to finnd any further info on it

thanks

[Windthrop]

name='tali122']Fred Karno bought an off-licence at Lilliput in Poole,however does anyone know of its exact location , is it still there?- can't seem to finnd any further info on it

thanks

As understand it the shop was bought with money from Charlie Chaplin

[tali122]

name='Windthrop']As understand it the shop was bought with money from Charlie Chaplin

yes was aware of that- i need location

[torerro]

Yes Fred Karno did have an Off licence in Lilliput, and according to a biographical programme on T.V. he also had an Off licence at the Constitution Hill end of Ashley road, Parkstone, Dorset. I actually met Fred Karno about 6 weeks before he died. I had been evacuated from Portsmouth to stay with an aunt, due to the intense bombing raids on Portsmouth. I had been down to Alder Road Park

to train for the coming sports day at Heatherlands School, and took an unusual

route home in case the corner shop (Magnets Stores) had any sweets. A man beckoned me from across the road,"Come here Sonny". I could see that he wasn't

well and had difficulty in standing."Could you get me my rations from the shop?" He handed me his ration book and half-a-crown(12 and a half pence) and pointed back to the house behind."I live on the top floor, I'll be there." I watched him walk with dificulty to the door to the stairs, then went to the shop for him. I noticed the name on the ration book was Fred Karno, but it meant nothing to me then. When I took his rations back I walked up the stairs, which were bare boards, and into his living room. There was no furniture, only a couple of tea chests, and Fred was sitting upon one. Apart from that there were only a couple of threadbare offcuts of carpet on the floor. At his request I took the rations into the kitchen and put them into the fitted cupboard, then coming back into the living room I noticed 8 or

so theatre posters or playbills stuck on the walls. Two immediately struck my eye

At the top of each was a name I knew - Charlie Chaplin on one and Stan Laurel on the other. "Did you know them?" I said. "Know them - I made them!" he replied. He then began to tell me how he had trained them to be the great artists

they had become. He praised Stan Laurel as a gentlemen and told how he always sent a Christmas Card and some money each year, but was very bitter about

Charlie Chaplin who he denounced as mean and ungrateful, using terms that cannot be written here.I listened fascinated as he told tales of triumphs and travelling to Hollywood to make films, then realised I would be late home and my mother would be worried. When I explained where I had been she was upset and forbade me to enter Fred's flat again, but said I could go to the shop for him

if he met me at the gate. She was astonished when I told her he was Fred Karno

and confirmed most of what he had told me, but I am not sure that she believed it was really him. So for the next few weeks I got his rations, then one time I called

at the house only to be told he had been taken to hospital. The following Sunday I read in the News of the World, that Mr Karno had died at his home in Wharfdale Road Parkstone Dorset. I think the headline was something like :"Great Impresario dies in Poverty. "

I hope this post has been both informative and interesting.

[Edward G]

Torrero, this post was absolutely fascinating and thanks very much for writing it. I'm sure many other people will find it more than interersting. I read a bit about the legendary Fred Karno in John McCabe's book "Mr Laurel and Mr Hardy" and without doubt Stan Laurel was very outspoken in his admiration and respect for Karno. I think he remembered his roots and influences a lot more than Chaplin did. Karno's troupe was huge and he simply was travelling theatre in the UK for a good many years, giving rise to the name "Fred Karno's Army". It seems that when he went to the United States at the same time as his proteges Chaplin and Laurel his art of pantomine and stagecraft, though preparing the first comedians for the early world of film comedy, was rapidly overtaken by the fledging film industry in many ways and made him redundant in a short space of time. It's sad to hear confirmation of the rumours that he died in very reduced circumstances after years at the top of the entertainment industry and having given employment to many but this is by no means an unusual scenario. He cannot have envisaged that while he would pass away almost forgotten Chaplin's star would continue to soar assuming almost iconic status and including the mounting of a commemorative statue - even before he died. Irony doesn't begin to describe a turn of events like this. Do you have any other memories of your meetings with Karno? Would love to hear more and thank you.

name='torerro']Yes Fred Karno did have an Off licence in Lilliput, and according to a biographical programme on T.V. he also had an Off licence at the Constitution Hill end of Ashley road, Parkstone, Dorset. I actually met Fred Karno about 6 weeks before he died. I had been evacuated from Portsmouth to stay with an aunt, due to the intense bombing raids on Portsmouth. I had been down to Alder Road Park

to train for the coming sports day at Heatherlands School, and took an unusual

route home in case the corner shop (Magnets Stores) had any sweets. A man beckoned me from across the road,"Come here Sonny". I could see that he wasn't

well and had difficulty in standing."Could you get me my rations from the shop?" He handed me his ration book and half-a-crown(12 and a half pence) and pointed back to the house behind."I live on the top floor, I'll be there." I watched him walk with dificulty to the door to the stairs, then went to the shop for him. I noticed the name on the ration book was Fred Karno, but it meant nothing to me then. When I took his rations back I walked up the stairs, which were bare boards, and into his living room. There was no furniture, only a couple of tea chests, and Fred was sitting upon one. Apart from that there were only a couple of threadbare offcuts of carpet on the floor. At his request I took the rations into the kitchen and put them into the fitted cupboard, then coming back into the living room I noticed 8 or

so theatre posters or playbills stuck on the walls. Two immediately struck my eye

At the top of each was a name I knew - Charlie Chaplin on one and Stan Laurel on the other. "Did you know them?" I said. "Know them - I made them!" he replied. He then began to tell me how he had trained them to be the great artists

they had become. He praised Stan Laurel as a gentlemen and told how he always sent a Christmas Card and some money each year, but was very bitter about

Charlie Chaplin who he denounced as mean and ungrateful, using terms that cannot be written here.I listened fascinated as he told tales of triumphs and travelling to Hollywood to make films, then realised I would be late home and my mother would be worried. When I explained where I had been she was upset and forbade me to enter Fred's flat again, but said I could go to the shop for him

if he met me at the gate. She was astonished when I told her he was Fred Karno

and confirmed most of what he had told me, but I am not sure that she believed it was really him. So for the next few weeks I got his rations, then one time I called

at the house only to be told he had been taken to hospital. The following Sunday I read in the News of the World, that Mr Karno had died at his home in Wharfdale Road Parkstone Dorset. I think the headline was something like :"Great Impresario dies in Poverty. "

I hope this post has been both informative and interesting.

[CaptainWaggett]

Karno had £42 7s. 4d. to his name when he died which really isn't much to show for starting off so many famous careers. He had a sad private life too with six of his eight children dying in infancy.

[Edward G]

Blimey CaptainWaggett,

I had a peep at Wikepedia and it seems Karno was not liked by many of his staff and treated his first wife poorly, almost inventing the term "casting couch", if we are to believe the biography site that is linked to it. Still a very sad story in many ways.

[CaptainWaggett]

The Oxford DNB suggests that his first wife probably had a fairly miserable life though I don't know any more





Karno, Fred [real name Frederick John Westcott] (1866–1941), comedian

by Eric Midwinter

© Oxford University Press 2004–8 All rights reserved



Karno, Fred [real name Frederick John Westcott] (1866–1941), comedian, was born on 26 March 1866 at Paul Street, Exeter, the eldest of the six sons and the seven children of John Westcott, cabinet-maker and french polisher of Exeter, and his wife, Emily Bowden, also of Exeter. He had a perfunctory elementary education in Exeter and Nottingham. He began as a circus acrobat and gymnast as one of the Three Carnoes with Bob Sewell and Ted Tysall. This became the Karno Trio, from which he took his stage name in the 1880s. By the 1890s he had developed his flair for low comedy, and established himself as an entrepreneur of often ‘speechless’ sketches. From Karno's Fun Factory in Camberwell he sent forth teams of comedians to perform his endless series of slapstick mini-shows as set pieces on music-hall bills. He had an early success with ‘Jail Birds’, while other favourites were ‘The Football Match’, starring Harry Weldon as Stiffy the goalkeeper, and ‘Karno's Komics’. However, the cameo which won everlasting fame was ‘Mumming Birds’, first performed in 1904 at the Star Music Hall, Bermondsey. This is reputed to be the funniest burlesque of music-hall there has been, and, with its stage within a stage, it ran in one form or another for thirty years.



In 1913 Karno expended a huge part of the fortune he had gathered on buying Tagg's Island on the Thames in Hampton and there built his ‘Karsino’ at a cost of £70,000. The outbreak of the First World War ruined all chance of its success—he had hoped to sell it after two years to the Lyons company—and he never quite recovered financially or professionally. He ran an off-licence in the latter part of his life.



Karno's ‘army’ gave either a solid start or valuable experience to dozens of comedians. Charles Chaplin was spotted as a film prospect when with a Karno company, while other famous names associated with him include Stan Jefferson (Laurel, of Laurel and Hardy), Fred Kitchen (of the famous catchphrase, ‘Meredith, we're in’) Will Hay, Sandy Powell, Wee Georgie Wood, and Max Miller. Immortalized by the soldiery in the First World War, Fred Karno's army lives on as a descriptor of chaotic organization. To a famous hymn tune the troops irreverently sang: ‘We are Fred Karno's army, Fred Karno's infantry; we cannot fight, we cannot shoot, so what damn good are we?’



Karno married Edith (1867/8–1926/7), theatre assistant and daughter of John Cuthbert, journeyman rope manufacturer of Stockport, in Lambeth, on 15 January 1889. They had eight children, of whom six died in extreme infancy and only two sons, Frederick Arthur and Leslie, survived. On 16 June 1927, after the death of his first wife, whom he had treated with some cruelty, he married his long-time mistress, Marie Theresa Laura, daughter of Thomas William Moore of London, theatrical manager and co-founder of the Moore and Burgess Minstrels. Fred Karno died on 17 September 1941 at his home, 24 Wharfedale Road, Parkstone, Dorset.



ERIC MIDWINTER

Sources J. P. Gallagher, Fred Karno: master of mirth and tears (1971) · S. T. Felstead, Stars who made the halls (1946) · b. cert. · m. cert. · CGPLA Eng. & Wales (1941)



Archives V&A, theatre collections, cuttings

FILM BFI NFTVA, performance footage



Wealth at death £42 7s. 4d.: probate, 29 Oct 1941, CGPLA Eng. & Wales





Eric Midwinter, ‘Karno, Fred (1866–1941)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004; online edn, Jan 2008 [Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, accessed 18 April 2008]



Fred Karno (1866–1941): doi:10.1093/refdnb/37623

[Edward G]

Cheers Captain Waggett

[lordtednfs]

When I was at school in Hanwell, West London, back in the early 70's, a good friend of mine invited me to his house as we were going to play football at the back of his house on an area called Little John Field, which overlooked the old Hanwell Community Centre.



When I arrived at his house, I waited for him to change and got into a conversation with his grandfather, whom at the time was boring me to death with tales of some Charlie Chaplin, Stan something or other and Fred Flinstone for all I cared. And then he bought out an album containing pictures, they weren't black and white, more of a yellowy colour, and him with some funny looking people for which I showed huge interest, I don't think.



And this thread has awakened my old memory. He was showing me pictures of himself with the great Chaplin and Stan Laurel who were rehearsing for their stage shows. I am now going to get in touch with my friend via his old address and many of my old class mates to try and track him down and to see if he still has the originals of the pictures his grandfather showed to me and hopefully get them on our site or even published.



_______________

Hooked of the line

[CaptainWaggett]

name='Edward G']Blimey CaptainWaggett,

I had a peep at Wikepedia and it seems Karno was not liked by many of his staff and treated his first wife poorly, almost inventing the term "casting couch", if we are to believe the biography site that is linked to it. Still a very sad story in many ways.

I followed the same link as you did. Blimey indeed. It's not quite so surprising that his proteges didn't rally round him. His poor, poor wife. What an absolutely ghastly time she must have had.

[Edward G]

Wow Lord Ted, didn't know you had met such a legendary figure as Karno. That's the great thing about this forum - it seems to draw together anecdotes and memories that just don't seem to be available anywhere else. A great idea to try to resurrect the photos..



Have to agree with CaptainWaggett about the apalling treatment Karno dished out to his wife. The fact that she returned to him her wedding ring shortly before she died as a sign "that there was no one else for me" only for him to turn around within 3 weeks and marry his mistress leaves a chill. I watched the film "Control" recently, about the life story of the legendary Joy Division lead singer, Ian Curtis, and the sheer torture his wife endured seemed endless. At the end of his short and tragic life he took his own life in their family home. Another cruel twist was that his suicide note was addressed to his mistress.



Fiction can never get close to echoing the deepest sense of despair and darkness that real life quietly presents....





Have a nice weekend all!

name='lordtednfs']When I was at school in Hanwell, West London, back in the early 70's, a good friend of mine invited me to his house as we were going to play football at the back of his house on an area called Little John Field, which overlooked the old Hanwell Community Centre.



When I arrived at his house, I waited for him to change and got into a conversation with his grandfather, whom at the time was boring me to death with tales of some Charlie Chaplin, Stan something or other and Fred Flinstone for all I cared. And then he bought out an album containing pictures, they weren't black and white, more of a yellowy colour, and him with some funny looking people for which I showed huge interest, I don't think.



And this thread has awakened my old memory. He was showing me pictures of himself with the great Chaplin and Stan Laurel who were rehearsing for their stage shows. I am now going to get in touch with my friend via his old address and many of my old class mates to try and track him down and to see if he still has the originals of the pictures his grandfather showed to me and hopefully get them on our site or even published.



_______________

Hooked of the line

[lordtednfs]

name='Edward G']Wow Lord Ted, didn't know you had met such a legendary figure as Karno. That's the great thing about this forum - it seems to draw together anecdotes and memories that just don't seem to be available anywhere else. A great idea to try to resurrect the photos..

Edward, how old do you think I am? The 1970's not the 1870's.



My friends grandfather knew Fred Karno, not me. He, Karno, died before I was born, he died in 1941, I was born in 1955.



I will def contact my friend and try to get pics and even more from him to post here.



________________

Hooked off the line

[Edward G]

Ha Ha! Sorry Lord Ted.

Not an intentional mistake. Was gonna ask you what Queen Victoria was like close-up! Rattled off my reply without reading too closely....

Kind Regards,

Edward G.

name='lordtednfs']Edward, how old do you think I am? The 1970's not the 1870's.



My friends grandfather knew Fred Karno, not me. He, Karno, died before I was born, he died in 1941, I was born in 1955.



I will def contact my friend and try to get pics and even more from him to post here.



________________

Hooked off the line

[torerro]

Thankyou for your response to my post about Fred Karno. Sadly, that was all I could remember from that encounter, but I do have another anecdote that may interest you. I was brought up in a house about 40 yards from Portsmouth & Southsea's most prestigious theatre (the King's as it is known). From quite an early age I was used to having famous people pointed out to me as they passed by on their way to Southsea's shopping centre. When I was 16 I began working

for Brewers of Marmion Road, Importers , blenders, and packers of very high class

teas and coffees. Besides being trained in tea tasting (to get the blends right) I also helped with the packing machines in the small factory annex near the shop, and did the small home deliveries on a carrier bike.

I cannot remember the exact date, but I know it was in 1947,when I set out to

deliver the orders, and as I rode along I was astonished to see two gentlemen

walking towards me on the other side of the road, so astonished indeed that I pulled up sharply and stood staring at them. It was Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy!

At that late date their carreers were on the downward slide, and they had been persuaded to tour England to earn some much needed cash. They both wore

identical overcoats of tan herringbone tweed tied with a soft belt, and Fedora hats

Olly had lost a little weight, and Stan had put on quite a bit, so they looked as if they both weighed the same, but they were still my boyhood heroes from the

Saturday morning pictures. Then Olly came over and spoke to me"Say could you sell me some ground coffee?" They must have noticed the plate hanging from the

bike's crossbar with all the details of the firm on it. I'm sorry Sir, but all I have are

orders to deliver." I said. "Could you deliver some to me at the theatre?" he replied." Certainly Sir I be glad to" I said," but if you continue walking down this road you will reach the shop, and they have all sorts of different blends and roasts

and you can choose one to your liking. You can't miss the shop, just follow the

lovely smell of roasting coffee beans," Both Olly and Stan thanked me, and tipped

their hats and walked on. I carried on with my deliveries, and then went back to the shop." You'll never guess whose been in to buy coffee" they all said when I

returned." Laurel and Hardy "I said, "I sent them".

It was only much later that I realised I had missed a golden oppurtunity. Why did

I not ask them for their autographs? And Fred Karno too, and those playbills he had would have been worth a small fortune now, if autographed by him.

[tali122]

Some truly fascinating stories (torerro) and info.

Karno's will would be worth a minimum £1628.57 today

Noted the Ashley road off licence but Lilliput is still unaccounted for.Any ideas what currently occupies the Ashley road off licence ?

[Warren Karno]

Thursday19th June08.



What an interesting site.I didnt realise anyone was remotly interested.You must all be "Seniors" to have even heard of him.Thank you.

My name is Warren Edward Karno-Atkins. My mother being a Westcott, her dad being Freds Brother,born Nottm. She was on the boards with Karno,s shows ,playing the Moss Empires,Europe and America.She was a lead dancer with the Jackson Girls[later called the Bluebells] and as a child backstage I met many of the performers of the day[mainly 40,s and early 50,s] I was given a ukelele by George Formby which I swaped for some marbles! silly boy. I didnt at that time know how fortunate and special that time was. Bombs,airaids,and the stage were everyday ordinary, knowing little else. Its only later when we look back we realise how fortunate we were.

The Fred Karno story [tears]as told by a close friend of his first wife, understandably very subjective, has little good to say of the man, but If we looked as closley at many outstanding personalities, we might find a person who didnt like them. In Fred Karno,s case I have little doubt it lacked justification.

but the book does fall short on any objectivity. and reticent to mention his strengths and good points. It has to be seen in the context of its time.

I would be most interested in any details of his two surviving Sons.

My experience suggests some of what we are told as children has more to do with expediancy than truth. for instance I was told that as Fred had no surviving Son. I was to carry the name. Clearly there is more to this?

My mother, married[for the third time]to a Frank Edward Atkins in perhaps South Kensington. where I was born[5 Kendrick Mews] At my Christening Charlie Chaplins first wife was my Godmother. I remember the photo but thats all.Today living in New Zealand,no one has heard of most of these people. So strangly I have taken up Magic..perhaps to bring back a little for the children.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

Warren Karno.net

[Gareth321]

Thanks for this info on Fred Karno,

Frederick Westcott (Fred Karno) was my Great,Great Uncle,he had brothers called Frank,John,Mark,Arthur,Albert(My Great Grandad),and a sister called Emily.

Freds dad was called John Westcott Born 1842 and his mum was Emily Born 1846,

Freds grandad was called James Westcott Born 1821 and his grandma was called Jane nee Cann Born 1819.

Freds Great Grandma was called Hannah nee Cann Born 1791.

Freds nephew Edward Westcott was my Grandad Born 1922 Died 1973,and Edwards daughter is my mum Janice Nee Westcott Born 1949

[Warren Karno]

name='Gareth321']Thanks for this info on Fred Karno

Frederick Westcott (Fred Karno) was my Great,Great Uncle,he had brothers called Frank,John,Mark,Arthur,Albert(My Great Grandad),and a sister called Emily.

Freds dad was called John Westcott Born 1842 and his mum was Emily Born 1846,

Freds grandad was called James Westcott Born 1821 and his grandma was called Jane nee Cann Born 1819.

Freds Great Grandma was called Hannah nee Cann Born 1791.

Freds nephew Edward Westcott was my Grandad Born 1922 Died 1973,and Edwards daughter is my mum Janice Nee Westcott Born 1949

Hello Gareth,

Sorry it has taken a while, if you wish you may contact me on portfolio.press@xtra.co.nz or via my website Warren Karno.

It seems we have much to share. I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Warren

[Warren Karno]

name='Gareth321' timestamp='1215089041' post='160740']

Thanks for this info on Fred Karno,



Frederick Westcott (Fred Karno) was my Great,Great Uncle,he had brothers called Frank,John,Mark,Arthur,Albert(My Great Grandad),and a sister called Emily.



Freds dad was called John Westcott Born 1842 and his mum was Emily Born 1846,



Freds grandad was called James Westcott Born 1821 and his grandma was called Jane nee Cann Born 1819.



Freds Great Grandma was called Hannah nee Cann Born 1791.



Freds nephew Edward Westcott was my Grandad Born 1922 Died 1973,and Edwards daughter is my mum Janice Nee Westcott Born 1949