Sir John Dankworth on his film scores

[julian_craster]

Jazz in 1960s British New Wave Cinema:

An Interview with Sir John Dankworth

by Frank Griffith



From: Journal of British Cinema and Television, Volume 3, Issue 2, Nov

2006.





Sir John Dankworth, the eminent English composer, conductor, bandleader and

jazz

musician has written in many genres, including composing over 20 film

scores. Of

these, Saturday Night and Sunday Morning (1960), The Criminal (1960), The

Servant

(1963) and Darling (1965) in particular, played a major role in bringing

about a new

sound in British film during the 1960s.1







The first major jazz-influenced score was penned in 1955 by Elmer Bernstein,

for

Otto Preminger's The Man With the Golden Arm. To the composer himself, the

kind

of music needed was obvious. As he put it:



There is something very American and contemporary about all the characters

and their problems. I wanted an element that could speak readily of hysteria

and

despair, an element that would localise these emotions to our country, to a

large

city if possible. Ergo - jazz (quoted in Prendergast 1977: 109).



Also worthy of note is Johnny Mandel's score for Robert Wise's I Want to

Live!

(1958) which featured Gerry Mulligan, Pete Jolly, Bob Envoldsen and other

fine LA

jazz players. The distinct feature of that score was that it actually used

improvisation

and the jazz was linked into the movie. It was a dark story, based on the

actual case of

a woman framed for murder, and helped to establish the frequent association

of jazz

with crime and the urban.



It was not surprising, then, that at the end of the 1950s, when a new wave

of

contemporary urban realism hit Britain, directors there too looked for

modern sounds

to match the mood and drama of their films. And what better music to

underscore this

reality than jazz, with its cachet as the music of the oppressed? When

directors sought

someone who could fulfil their need for this new music, John Dankworth,

already

Britain's leading modern jazzman, was playing the right music at the right

time.

Indeed, throughout the 1950s, his group, the Johnny Dankworth Seven, which

included vocalist Cleo Laine, had been paving the way for modern jazz in

Britain.







FG (Frank Griffith) Who were you influenced by when you first started

composing

film music?







JD (Sir John Dankworth) Funnily enough, before then I didn't really rate

film music

and I didn't really listen carefully enough to it or study it closely enough

to know of

anything I would like, anything I would say that I approved of very much.







FG You said in an interview in Jazzwise magazine in 2004 that at the end of

the

1950s movie producers were looking for something new, for different sounds

for

films, and that jazz just happened to be around.







JD Yes, I think that Elmer Bernstein's score for The Man with the Golden Arm

worked so well that almost every movie director or producer was looking in

that

direction to see whether something similar would suit their film equally

well. I guess

that's probably why Losey and Reisz approached me. I was at that time the

sort of





number one. I mean, if a non-jazz person was thinking of jazz in this

country,

probably my name would have come up in their minds before anybody else's.

The

Humphrey Lyttletons and Chris Barbers were of the other sort of jazz [trad],

but they

were definitely not looking for that. They were looking for something more

contemporary.2







FG Your first two scores involved a fair amount of improvisation, which I

think is a

real sign of a jazz piece. Many jazz film scores did not use improvisation,

including

some of your later ones.







JD Well, it does have its problems because a director wants each take of the

music to

be virtually identical, and that's difficult when something is improvised.

Or maybe it

doesn't quite synchronise, so you go back and do it again but paced slightly

differently. Or the director might say 'could we have that little rising

note?' or 'I did

like that instrument that came on there. Can we have a bit more of that?'

But if you're

improvising, you've got little or no control over those things. However, for

chases,

and for music where you religiously record and hope that every note is right

and

examine it carefully before you okay it, when you finally hear it mixed with

sound

effects and dialogue it's sometimes turned down so low you can barely hear

it!







John Dankworth's first film score was for We Are the Lambeth Boys (1959),

although

he and his band had played on two previous films: The Whole Truth (1958),

with

Mischa Spolianski's music, and Sapphire (1959), with Philip Green's.









FG In 1959 Karel Reisz invited you to compose the score for his documentary

We

Are The Lambeth Boys and the following year you scored his groundbreaking

film

Saturday Night and Sunday Morning. Could you describe how you originally met

up

with Karel Reisz, and how you started composing for films in the first

place?







JD Well, I can't remember exactly how he contacted me. When he first

approached

me I knew his name but I had no idea of what he was like. I always imagined

movie

directors in those days to be sort of cigar smoking Americans, well groomed

and

dressed in Rodeo Drive stuff. Only much more formal in those days, I guess.

So when

I went to meet him in an Italian restaurant in Soho I was all dressed up

with a collar

and tie, whereas I usually wore something much more casual; and he usually,

apparently, dressed up with a collar and tie but had dressed down quite

casually. So

there was me looking formal and him looking casual, instead of the other way

around,

and we got on together. In fact, we had quite a long friendship.



Karel obviously was a person who wanted to create new styles, rather than

follow

existing styles. He'd made a documentary, and someone had written a score

which he

didn't like it and which he rejected. I don't know what he did after that,

how he

replaced it. But he played this film, or part of it, to show me the sort of

music that he

didn't like. It wasn't at all bad, but it was traditional in that it used

the sort of effects

and sort of music you would expect. It wasn't trashy in any way, but he just

made it

very clear: 'That's what I don't want', he said, 'I just want you to sit in

front of this

film and think of something' But he certainly wasn't a particular jazz fan.

He may

simply have heard my records and liked what he heard.



Up to that time I'd had no interest in doing music for movies at all.

Rather the

contrary. I thought it was a compromise, in the same way that I also felt to

some





extent that opera and ballet were a compromise, in that something was

distracting the

audience when they should be listening to the music. So I wasn't very keen,

but he

persuaded me to see the film, which was called We Are The Lambeth Boys. I

watched

it on a clattery old Moviola which made more noise than an aircraft taking

off, so it

disturbed your train of thought till you got used to it. Anyway, I looked at

it and, all of

a sudden, something happened in my head, and I started hearing music which I

could

never have imagined myself doing before. The scene was so descriptive and

the way

it was shot, and the way the story was being told, was so sympathetic to

these rather

sad kids, who were never actually enjoying themselves even at work. But

something

hit me, and just made me feel that I could write something that was

different. So I

did, and I was very pleased with it.



Karel was right at the beginning of his career then. I remember that we

recorded the

whole soundtrack in one session at the National Film Theatre on the South

Bank. I

can distinctly remember Karel going to his car and getting out the

microphones, and

bringing them in. It was all done on a shoestring even though Ford sponsored

it and

you would have thought that they had plenty of money.







FG Karel Reisz has described your music for We Are the Lambeth Boys as

having a

'joyful astringency'. In your book Jazz in Revolution you state that you

felt that your

best collaboration with Reisz was in the documentary, and that Saturday

Night and

Sunday Morning didn't quite recapture the same magic of the marriage between

the

music and the movie. I gather that Reisz wanted to feature an accordion in

the score,

and that you weren't very keen. However, you integrated it very effectively

into a jazz

group and the accordion works well as a musical protagonist, expressing both

the





sentiments of the main character and all that goes on around him in a wide

spectrum

of moods.







JD I don't know why Karel specified it. However, he did, so we had to have

it. I

would have never chosen an accordion, but I didn't have that sort of breadth

of

imagination. I was a bit too much of a blinkered jazzer, who wouldn't use an

accordion if I didn't think was the best possible instrument to use there. I'd

have

probably used a Miles Davis-style muted trumpet, a tin mute, or something

like that,

which wouldn't have quite done the trick like the accordion did. It became

the theme

instrument at various moments in the film and helped in that way to point up

certain

aspects of the plot. I still don't know why it works, but I've got to admit

that it does

work in a way in the context in which it's used. Incidentally, although

Karel wasn't a

jazz fan, Albert Finney, then an unknown actor, really loved jazz, and often

used to

come to gigs before we did this film.







1960 saw Dankworth's first collaboration with Joseph Losey, on the prison

drama The

Criminal. The soundtrack features Dankworth's song 'Thieving Boy', sung by

Cleo

Laine with lyrics by the screenplay writer Alun Owen. Throughout the film

this song,

with its forlorn lyrics, serves as an highly effective and atmospheric

accompaniment

to the story. Two years later, Dankworth and Losey worked together on The

Servant,

their greatest collaboration. Writing in Jazzwise Selwyn Harris (2004)

describes

Dankworth's score as playing a key part in



conspiring in the film's dark emotional undercurrents. Pungent homophonic

chamber-like wind textures and insinuating jazz harmonies cut to smoky sax





lines suggesting nuances of character and mood while discreetly hinting at

the

underlying tension.







FG In The Servant you used a device similar to that of the accordion in

Saturday

Night and Sunday Morning, except here you have a very interesting

juxtaposition of

string quartet and saxophone quartet. They're almost like two sides of the

same coin.

They played the same theme, that four-note theme that you introduced in the

opening

sequence when you see Barrett (Dirk Bogarde) walking over to the house of

his

employer Tony (James Fox) to introduce himself and start his first day of

work. You

have the theme playing which is initially brought in by string quartet, and

then you

reintroduce the theme again with the saxophone quartet.







JD Yes, it changes on the interior of the house. I wasn't happy with the way

the

leader of the saxophone quartet played. He was very highly regarded, but

somehow,

though, the way he played it didn't sound like what I wanted. So, I then

re-recorded it

with the Michael Krein Saxophone Quartet, and then I got just what I wanted

out of

it. I didn't want it to be too sweet, but I didn't want it to sound too sort

of po-faced

either.







The song 'All Gone' in The Servant fulfils a similar role to the song in The

Criminal,

and is also sung by Cleo Laine. Harold Pinter wrote the lyrics. In Cleo and

John

Dankworth states:



The idea was that the same song should change imperceptibly to spell out the

degeneration of the situation. The first time the song was played, it was

quite

straightforward, then it crept in to the minor key, then it came with





interjections from tenor sax and in the last case it was done in almost an

atonal

way with Cleo singing right through what was in those days a cacophonous

background (quoted in Collier 1976: 108).







FG Pinter's lyrics have to do with the movie, but and the words could easily

have

been changed and the song transferred to the popular canon as a jazz ballad.







JD I asked Harold whether he would consider rewriting the lyric in a way

that it

could be performed separately from the film. As you say, the lyrics directly

relate to

the film and the tawdry things that happen in it. He said: 'No. For what

reason?'. I

said: 'Just so it might get more performances and you might be a more famous

lyricist

than you are at the moment', or something trivial like that. He never came

up with

anything, but there again I can't imagine what lyrics a Nobel Literature

Prize winner

would come up with!







Despite the successes of Saturday Night and Sunday Morning and The Criminal

it

wasn't until after The Servant that Dankworth's film scoring talents were

widely

sought after. His next collaboration was in 1965 with director John

Schlesinger, for

Darling. In his memoir, Dankworth (1998: 155) wrote: 'Schlesinger was a keen

music

lover and was anxious that the score had a different feel from fashionable

movie

scores which merely reflected current tastes in popular music







JD What happened was that he entrusted me with the score, as a director does

in the

first place, but obviously tried to explain the sort of effect he was trying

to get for any

particular scene. One of the most important bits of music was when Julie

Christie gets





upset and runs through the set discarding her clothes and ends up sobbing on

the bed.

The camera followed her all the way through, and that's where I had Kenny

Wheeler

on the session. I particularly wanted him to be featured on this. However, I

guess I

probably overwrote myself, or got a bit 'Gil Evans-ed' up, or whatever.

Anyway I

thought worked out quite well. I'm not sure if John was there when I

actually

recorded it, but when he heard it, I could see he wasn't happy with it. I

realised then

that I'd somehow overwritten it, which you should be very careful about if

you're a

film composer, as it's a bit show-offy to do that. Some of the best film

music

shouldn't be heard or noticed at all, it should just be part of the

experience. Anyway I

realised he wasn't happy, so I said: 'Well John, I'm getting the sort of

texture that you

want now, but can you just tell me a little more about it?' So we looked at

it on the

Moviola and when he started trying to explaining to me what he wanted, I

said: 'John,

why don't you just sort of moan, or say syllables, or something, just to

give me an

idea where you feel things should happen'. So he made various sounds as we

watched, and I did get from him the idea that the music had to be very

thin,sad and

isolated and that the great layers of sound that I'd given it, a sort of

organ type

accompaniment, were not what he'd wanted, and weren't going to work either,

so we

redid it all again. Kenny Wheeler did the repeat, but instead of using the

flugelhorn,

he used a tin mute trumpet, and it got thinned down until it ended up being

almost

inaudible at the end, just a single instrument. So that was a case where a

director who

was very interested in music, but not musically literate, was able by sounds

and noises

to give me a road map of what he actually wanted to hear, and so we both

ended up

with the same sort of product, and with me converting into musical terms

what he had

in his mind.

[julian_craster]

CONTINUED.......





In Cleo and John, Dankworth describes Schlesinger's desire for a wide

palette of

musical sounds:



Darling (1965) was the most varied score I have ever written and it was an

immensely rewarding experience. The difficult part of the score was not only

in

the recording but also in the conception. Director John Schlesinger thought

of

the actual sound he wanted often by playing records for me at his home, with

the result that almost every section of music had a different combination.

One

was a choir, one a pop group, one a banjo player, one a solo singer, one a

symphony orchestra and another an organ. I also had to transpose some

sections

to other instruments to change the sound for Schlesinger, and I was glad of

my

experience as a jazz musician when making last-minute alterations (quoted in

Collier 1976: 109).







FG You mentioned in your memoirs that Reisz would have like to have written

the

scores himself, whereas Losey trusted you for the several movies you did

with him







JD Well, I think that might have been a little unkind to Karel. I think it

was just that

he felt that with his knowledge of music he could explain to me better what

he wanted

than if he expressed it in abstract terms like 'exciting' or 'dreamy' or

whatever. He

had little wisps of music that he knew in his head, so he would suggest a

Debussy-

like thing, a Wagnerian fanfare or a bit of Bach, and all that. Which, of

course, was

only his way of trying to explain, it didn't mean a series of pastiches of

all these

composers by any means. Losey, on the other hand, was someone who picked

people

for their ability, and unless he felt very strongly that they were on the

wrong track, he

would just let them get on with it. He respected their specialised skills

and powers of





discernment, and only on one occasion did I see him step in. I remember with

James

Fox in The Servant that at one point Losey felt that on the earlier takes

his voice was

too highly pitched and should have been a bit more in the lower register. So

Fox had

to redo all those passages.







Dankworth emphasises this point further in Cleo and John:



Directors like Losey, who gave me a completely free hand never even wanted

to know, in most cases, what instrument I was using. I find that I respond

to that

treatment much better. Probably part of the trouble with Karel's films is

that

they both happened at a time when I was very busy - the Saturday Night and

Sunday Morning score was done at the same time as The Criminal - I was

dashing from one to the other. I'd never done a film score before in my life

and

I was given two in the same month (quoted in Collier 1976: 72).



Elsewhere in the same book he also makes an interesting point about scoring

Accident

(1967):



I discussed the instrumentation [with Losey] for a long time. It's sometimes

the

only way you can communicate . you can't really discuss music with a non-

musical person without playing examples which I'm terrible at, so one

discusses

instrumentation. Somehow, I came up with the idea of two harps, and he

agreed

to that - I don't know why - and I wasn't sure that I could pull it off, but

in fact

it worked quite well (quoted in ibid: 108).



In fact, the music was actually commented upon by the film's reviewer in New

Society, who noted that:



John Dankworth's harp theme represents the peace of the environment in the

college library as well as in the meadows and on the river. Against the

heavenly





harps his throating saxophone tells us of the anguished feelings of the

characters

in that peaceful environment (quoted in ibid: 109).











FG I read that you turned down the score to Blow Up (1966). You said that

you

weren't keen initially because it was not the sort of film you would

normally do, or

were not comfortable with in some way.







JD It's not quite true to say that I turned it down. I was phoned and asked

if I was

interested in doing it, and I said I wasn't; anyway they might not have

chosen me

even if I'd gone to the interview. At that time I was doing a lot of film

scoring and I

think they really would have liked to have used me if I'd wanted to do it.

So, I never

really got into the subject matter or whether it was a suitable film for me

at all. I just

felt that I was doing a few too many films at that time and that I'd better

turn down

something and make life a bit easier.







FG Yes you've said that after The Servant, the offers started coming in.

Once The

Servant established you as a film composer, did that enable you to exercise

more

creative freedom as a composer, as someone who could do your own thing

within the

context of the movie?







JD I think that if you are approached, rather than you approaching them,

then you

must have some sort of standing in their eyes, so you do get a certain

amount of

freedom in any movie, but any film composer has to remember that he is one

of a

team. You've got to do what's best for the team rather than display your own

music at





the expense of everything else in the film. But obviously, if they want to

cut out a

piece of music because they think that the scene doesn't need it, or to cut

out a whole

scene that's got a bit of music that you love, you can't exercise any

control over that.







FG- You have said that jazz composers work well in the film context because

of their

versatility and their ability to make last-minute adjustments. Do you think

that's

maybe one of the reasons why so many jazz composers flourished in writing

for films

in Hollywood and London during the 1960s?







JD- Well maybe. It could be the fact that when you are hired to do a film as

a jazz

composer, you inevitably come to certain portions of the film where jazz

just won't

do; maybe it's just source music - you see a violin and cello and piano

playing in a

café, and you have to adapt. There's always something there that isn't jazz,

and that's

a very good learning process for jazz composers who were a bit more

tunnel-visioned

when they started. In the same way you very quickly find that the technical

requirements of writing for films are to work to a stopwatch. People make

that out to

be some sort of mystique that only a few chosen people can ever understand,

but, of

course, we all know it's as easy as hell, isn't it? Particularly in jazz, if

you select a

metronome speed and you've got cues of say 12.8 seconds and you fit it at

120 beats

per minute, so you know that every bar line and so on. People say: 'I wonder

how

you ever get those things together', and you pretend that's it very

difficult because

you don't want too many jazz composers coming in and being competitors.







FG Are there any current plans to do any more film scores?









JD At the moment, no. I've not been considered for anything since Gangster

No 1



[Dankworth's most recent score of 2001]







FG If you were invited to score again, are there any particular directors or

film figures

that you would like to work with?







JD Well, I can't say that there are, really, because I don't really want to

do any more,

unless they came out with a very strong case and said that they wouldn't go

ahead

without me, or flattered me enough to make me feel that the music was going

to play

a very big part in the film, and said that they wanted me ahead of anybody

else. Other

than that, I must admit that I cast my mind back to the pleasures of doing

it but also

the headaches that are often caused by internal politics, where people

involved in a

film are manoeuvring and countering each other. I felt I couldn't go through

all that

again. I much prefer to be in as total control as possible of music, and

there are lots of

ways of doing that without having to go into the movies.







FG If you look back at the scores that you've done, do you have a particular

favourite, one that really stands out?







JD I think that the one that hangs together the best is The Servant. I

thought it did the

best service to the film and worked very well with it. But I'm also quite

proud of in

isolation, so to speak.







FG- It has been said that since the 1970s many movie scores have been bitten

by The

Graduate bug, which is to say that they consist of popular songs

specifically written





for the movie or that they use existing popular songs. Thus movie scores

gradually

started incorporating more popular music as opposed to original music.







JD- That's right, and it still applies a lot today when you see a list in

the credits as

long as your arm of 25 other pieces of music. That's the one thing that

displeased me

about the way film music was going. Maybe the reason why I like The Servant

is

because I don't think that there's one example of that in the film. I had to

write

whatever had to be the music for the film. I think that what it amounts to

is that you

get rather offended when they want to use a record of someone else. You

think, no

doubt unreasonably, that you might be able to do something that would work

better.











Notes



1. The other British feature films which Dankworth scored are: Return from

the Ashes

(1965), Sands of the Kalahari (1965), Scruggs (1965), Morgan: A Suitable

Case for

Treatment (1966), Modesty Blaise (1966), The Idol (1966), Accident (1967),

The Last

Safari (1967), Fathom (1967), Boom (songs only) (1968), Salt and Pepper

(1968),

The Other People (1968), The Magus (1968), The Last Grenade (1970), The

Engagement (1970), Perfect Friday (1970), 10 Rillington Place (1971), Kiss

Kiss

(Bang Bang) (2000), Gangster No. 1 (2000). His British television work

includes

scores for The Voodoo Factor (ATV 1959), Survival - various episodes (Anglia

1961 till?), The Avengers - various episodes (ATV 1961-4), Monitor - 'What

the

Dickens' episode (BBC 1963), Tomorrow's World (1967-81), From a Bird's Eye

View (ATV 1971), The World of Survival - various episodes (Anglia 1971-7),

Ooh La

La! (BBC 1973), Telford's Change (BBC 1979), Mitch (LWT 1984), No Strings

(Yorkshire 1989), Money for Nothing (BBC 1993).



2. Look Back in Anger (1959) had jazz in the background, but it was by Chris

Barber,

and the music was largely unrelated to the movie. The protest and rebellion

in the

trumpet may have been a metaphor for the anger that the Richard Burton

character

felt, but it was not convincingly intertwined with the drama itself.

Curiously enough,

Barber also features in the youth club in We Are the Lambeth Boys.





References

Collier, Graham (1976), Cleo and John, London: Quartet Books.



Dankworth, John (1998), Jazz in Revolution, London: Constable.



Harris, Selwyn (2004), Jazzwise, pages?



Prendergast, Roy (1977), Film Music- A Neglected Art, New York

[Moor Larkin]

When did he stop being a Johnny?



No mention of All Night Long then.......

[Steve Crook]

name='Moor Larkin']When did he stop being a Johnny?

Sir John sounds better than Sir Johnny for some reason.

But when people aren't using the title he's usually still Johnny



Steve

[julian_craster]

Sorry about the (lack of) formatting......but this article comes from a PDF file, and I would tediously have to go through it line by line to input it tidily, unless sombody knows how to do this automatically.....

[Moor Larkin]

Very kind of you to bother at all Mr. Craster. Anyone who's really interested will not mind picking their way down the page. Another answer is to copy and paste it into Word and then reformat it for oneself......



So, Steve..... Sir John Wilkinson?..... Surely Sir Johnny is a must......

[Steve Crook]

name='Moor Larkin']Very kind of you to bother at all Mr. Craster. Anyone who's really interested will not mind picking their way down the page. Another answer is to copy and paste it into Word and then reformat it for oneself......



So, Steve..... Sir John Wilkinson?..... Surely Sir Johnny is a must......

It's odd, the more familiar appellation does seem to work better for some people, or is it to do with their surnames? Lord Dickie Attenborough, Lord Larry Olivier, Sir Bob Geldof. But somehow Sir Johnny Dankworth just sounds wrong to my ear



So who's this Wilkinson bloke then?



Steve

[Peter Greenhill]

Nice article but it's a real shame that so little of John Dankworth's film work has been released on CD. A much underated film composer IMO.

If soundtracks to individual scores can't be released then a 2 CD set of some of his best work for movies would be much appreciated, at least by me.

[Geoffers]

name='julian_craster']Sorry about the (lack of) formatting......but this article comes from a PDF file, and I would tediously have to go through it line by line to input it tidily, unless sombody knows how to do this automatically.....

Excellent piece about a terrific musician - thanks very much. I previously read an interview with him when he explained how he came to write the song, Hideaway, which is featured on the Boom! soundtrack, sung by Georgie Fame. The rest of the score was by John Barry, but JD composed this song with Don Black, Barry's regular partner.



JD should have got more film scoring assignments, in my opinion. Who knows why he did not.

[Peter Greenhill]

According to a post by Timmer at FSM:

FSM Board: John Dankworth, Modesty Blaise, any info?



Dankworth scored the whole of Boom only to have all of it,except the song, replaced by one by John Barry.



I've always assumed that Barry scored Boom because the Joeseph Losey/John Barry stage version of Brighton Rock collapsed and Losey wanted to work with Barry, but perhaps not.

[vincenzo]

The Modesty Blaise score is excellent but Dankworth's music to Fathom (complete with Raquel Welch sleeve) is an absolute must.

[Santonix]

I thought his score for 10 Rillington Place was so well conceived, given the difficult subject matter of the film.

[vincenzo]

Telford's Change is another excellent theme.