Political Correctness. Turn on? or a turn off?

[GRAEME]

the (neo) Marxist Frankfurt

You get fried onions and ketchup with that?


Actually, I thought PC was more hippy-dippy New Left in origin...

[Tonch]

Very true but were there any comedians in the past that were even remotely as offensive as Frankie Boyle? Some were no doubt almost as offensive in their day saying things that would be deemed extremely tame by todays standards but that only goes to show the way manners have changed for the worse. I find it quite extraordinary that anyone could seriously think that we were in general no better mannered in the past.

Boyle's stock in trade is sail-close-to-the-wind shock tactics and as time goes by it does take more and more to startle us. That said, do you think jokes about "darkies" and "poofs" trotted out by the likes of Bernard Manning or Jim Davidson to waves of laughter in the 1970s would be shrugged off as "tame" nowadays?

I do see the point you're driving at regarding manners but surely this is a consequence of lifting the lid off social repression - there is less forelock tugging nowadays and people are not so expected to "know their place" - that's progress. Unfortunately lifting that same lid allows, at least in their own opinion, rude and ignorant people (they've always been around and no doubt always will be) license to peddle their reprehensible views with no sense of shame to reign them back. That's what's really receded within society in my opinion - a sense of shame and clear boundaries of what's beyond the pale.

[DB7]

Targets merely move, the old German/French stereotyping of those Perry and Croft sitcoms is today Borat and only racist if you've any idea where Kazakhstan is.

[ayrshireman]

Actually, I thought PC was more hippy-dippy New Left in origin...

No, he is correct. The Frankfurt School of the 1920's is the genesis of political correctness.

It is worth pointing out that political correctness did(does?) have a meaning and purpose. In a nutshell it was an idea that gained force by students upon reading the (neo) Marxist Frankfurt school. Its purpose is to destroy (change?) our 'bourgeois' culture by changing the way we talk and think, particularly about gender and race. Thus the point of it is its use as a weapon to change a culture towards a Marxist direction. To think political correctness is merely about manners is to reveal not only extreme ignorance but extreme naivety.

I agree. Nice to know others here know their history.

[GRAEME]

No, he is correct. The Frankfurt School of the 1920's is the genesis of political correctness.

I agree. Nice to know others here know their history.

You're using the word "know" here in an interesting way!

This is right wing smokescreen stuff used to discredit PC. Idiots who think it is somehow "communist" not call black people the N word.

[ayrshireman]

This is right wing smokescreen stuff used to discredit PC. Idiots who think it is somehow "communist" not call black people the N word.

Sorry, but after just two threads 'arguing' with you, I dont think I will bother anymore.
You dont seem to have any debating skills other than slandering people you dont agree with.

I was agreeing with the other poster about the origins of political correctness. You may not like it, but it does have its roots in Marxist theory of the 1920's. And Marxist theory sought and seeks to disable many facets of western, capitalist society, as it sees such a society as unfair and unequal. That and the roots of PC are no smokescreen, they are fact.

BTW, the best remark in this thread has been Tonch's, line 3 of his first paragraph. I agree with that line, I think it is spot on. No doubt when you re-read it, he will be another right wing demon.

[GRAEME]

Sorry, but after just two threads 'arguing' with you, I dont think I will bother anymore.
You dont seem to have any debating skills other than slandering people you dont agree with.

I was agreeing with the other poster about the origins of political correctness. You may not like it, but it does have its roots in Marxist theory of the 1920's. And Marxist theory sought and seeks to disable many facets of western, capitalist society, as it sees such a society as unfair and unequal. That and the roots of PC are no smokescreen, they are fact.

BTW, the best remark in this thread has been Tonch's, line 3 of his first paragraph. I agree with that line, I think it is spot on. No doubt when you re-read it, he will be another right wing demon.

You do seem to have a very shaky idea of the meaning of English words... Slander?

Feel free not to "argue" with me. Please. PC in it's current form emerged from 1970s New Left ideas. That there is a second hand backward connection to earlier left-thinking, I have no doubt (and Christian Socialism; and Christianity; and lots of things...) - but the Frankfurt School did not "invent" PC specifically. If you think they did - cite your sources!

As for the terrible revelation that evil Marxists might believe that capitalist society is "unfair and unequal"... Where could they have got such a bizarre idea??? You have to be a revolutionary nutter to think stuff like that!

Honestly, the "PC is a commie conspiracy" thing is baloney.

[ayrshireman]

1--Yes, slander was the wrong word, smear is much more apposite.

2--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School
Schiller Institute—THE NEW DARK AGE The Frankfurt School and "Political Correctness"
History of the Frankfurt School
Cultural Marxism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3

Honestly, the "PC is a commie conspiracy" thing is baloney.

You miss the point. What we are talking about when we talk about the Marxist roots of PC is the form that those early roots took and how they have taken since. As Marxism is a strict ideology, that explains much of the rigidity of political correctness, which is one of the great criticisms of it, that it is far too rigid and imposes itself rather than take shape in a fluid, common sense fashion. And in doing so, creates the very tension it is designed to eliminate. What has been called 'tyranny with manners'.

You are correct that much of today's 'PC' comes from the late 60's/early 70's. But where does that come from, Marcuse et al?.
It didnt form in a vacuum, its roots extend back several decades before. Hence the increasing study of the Frankfurt School and the early days of Cultural Marxism.

[GRAEME]

2--
Frankfurt School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Schiller Institute—THE NEW DARK AGE The Frankfurt School and "Political Correctness"
History of the Frankfurt School
Cultural Marxism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Schiller Institute?! You're killing me, man!

You're reading your political history from the followers of the criminal, nut and fascist Lyndon LaRouche?

Game over!

[ayrshireman]

I had no idea of the background of the Schiller Institute until your reply. I am quite happy to admit my ignorance of them until you pointed it out.
Temporary embarrassment and red face aside, I suppose I should thank you, lol.

Although I am aware of LaRouche, his Anglophobic rants are the stuff of legend.
To be honest, I had never heard of them. I googled the article and it seemed quite a well written piece relevant to my point.

You see, I am quite happy to admit my fallability. Nobody is perfect. I would also point out that I have posted three perfectly decent other links which give plenty of information on the point I am making.

That being said, arent you going to actually argue my other points, or the points made by other posters in the thread, or isnt that your style?.
You pointed out a dodgy link, that dosent quite mean you 'win'. My points have still been relevant and also the similar points made by other posters.

[GRAEME]

I had no idea of the background of the Schiller Institute until your reply. I am quite happy to admit my ignorance of them until you pointed it out.
Temporary embarrassment and red face aside, I suppose I should thank you, lol.

You pointed out a dodgy link, that dosent quite mean you 'win'. My points have still been relevant and also the similar points made by other posters.

You're welcome.

No. I win.

The general point that the New Left who created PC were following in a tradition which can be variously traced back to earlier phases of leftist thought, including but not exclusively the Frankfurt School, is almost too banal to debate. Of course they were, so what? They were also reacting against more didactic left approaches - and I would imagine that for most of the originators, it was inclusiveness and fairness that was at the forefront of their thinking.

I was responding to the reactionary attack made on PC (almost since its inception) by the hard-right (including the nuts you cited), for whom over-emphasising the connections with communism and Marxism are part of their usual, lazy, mud-slinging strategy.

The idea that PC is a sinister leftist conspiracy is bunk.

[ayrshireman]

I was responding to the reactionary attack made on PC (almost since its inception) by the hard-right (including the nuts you cited), for whom over-emphasising the connections with communism and Marxism are part of their usual, lazy, mud-slinging strategy.

The idea that PC is a sinister leftist conspiracy is bunk.

I think those on the right have a right to highlight the Marxist roots of PC-ism, as it has relevance as to how the notion/idea of political correctness formented and has shaped and grown. If PC was a rightist idea, I am sure as hell the left would do the same, and highlight its neo-conservative or extreme right roots and lineage, and I wouldnt have a problem with that. I personally find such roots fascinating. The more one can know about an idea, the more one can embrace or decry it. My own criticisms of PC have always been based in more straightforward philosophical and cultural argument. I will 'use' its marxist roots, as I said, to show what I believe is the root of its rigid structure and why I think that structure is flawed.

No, it isnt bunk. A conspiracy maybe not, and that would be hyperbole. But its leftist roots and structure are the core of its being. And its only right to highlight and critique such roots and structure, just like any political-social idea. And to do so does not mean you are a racist who wishes to insult minorities. Political correctness is an idea and an ideology, and like any, it MUST be subject to rigorous critique and criticism, and must stand or fall on its merits or failings.

[GRAEME]

I think those on the right have a right to highlight the Marxist roots of PC-ism, as it has relevance as to how the notion/idea of political correctness formented and has shaped and grown. If PC was a rightist idea, I am sure as hell the left would do the same, and highlight its neo-conservative or extreme right roots and lineage, and I wouldnt have a problem with that. I personally find such roots fascinating. The more one can know about an idea, the more one can embrace or decry it. My own criticisms of PC have always been based in more straightforward philosophical and cultural argument. I will 'use' its marxist roots, as I said, to show what I believe is the root of its rigid structure and why I think that structure is flawed.

No, it isnt bunk. A conspiracy maybe not, and that would be hyperbole. But its leftist roots and structure are the core of its being. And its only right to highlight and critique such roots and structure, just like any political-social idea. And to do so does not mean you are a racist who wishes to insult minorities. Political correctness is an idea and an ideology, and like any, it MUST be subject to rigorous critique and criticism, and must stand or fall on its merits or failings.

Meh.

Now you aren't saying anything at all.

So, PC isn't a conspiracy. Glad we agree.

It comes from the left. So what? Most good ideas do. You know, caring for people - making society a nicer place...

We're still left with this "ooh, we have to acknowledge the Marxist, communist roots, blah, blah, blah.." As if guilt-by-association with these boggy-men will send us all scurrying back to our Bernard Manning DVD collections...

You analyse and criticise, highlight and critique all you like. I'm just going to carry on treating people with respect regardless of race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, and ability-status... And that might mean watching what I say sometimes - which ain't exactly Big Brother!

[icetorch]

Who's to blame for PC? Hitler, because he lost the Second World War and thereby speeded up modernity. The Germans had to be deNazified. And who won that war? The Soviets, the US and the UK. One brutal regime, whose practices were nothing like as progressive as their supposed ideals, and two shining democracies. But wait a minute: Britain had a huge Empire. That involved oppressing people, especially other races. Sounds familiar? Nazism showed where discrimination could lead. We British had nobody to de-Imperialise us: we had to do it ourselves. That's where "political correctness" comes in. Naturally there were also a lot of left-wing ideas abroad as long as there was a large power financing them, i.e. the Soviet Union, but that was just part of the story. If Britain had stayed neutral and Hitler had won the war against the USSR, Britain would probably never have approved of genocide or adopted extermination camps, but we would more than likely have implemented apartheid in this country. So there is a historical context to these things that influences our views and therefore behaviour.

And is political correctness really new, or just the name? Surely there were always issues around that polarised people. Look at slavery in this country, historically: probably the pro-slavers regarded slavery as natural and thought the anti-slavers were nutcases. And different countries were, and are, at different stages at different times in their history. I remember watching a programme in the 1990s about children and "indentured labour" in Pakistan. Imran Khan was a politician at the time(still is?). "If Pakistan abolished indentured labour", he said, "it would only cause unemployment". I could hardly believe my ears.

The question always is, how far should you go? What should be regarded as progress? I'm sure every society has had these debates, at every stage of history. We've just found a new name for it, that's all. And with increased globalisation and ever-improving technology, its pace isn't going to slacken.

[Moor Larkin]

The annoying parts of PC can be just the short-term fashionista sort of storm in a teacup. I dont think things like Slavery only stopped because they were politically incorrect. The objection to such matters came from religious organsations - not secular political ones. I recall one irritating example of PC was when "nitty-gritty" became verboten, because some Activist declared that the term somehow harked back to slavery as it was the term for ballast in the slave-ships - so suddenly to use this term was somehow to condone slavery.... or at least that seemed the pressure at the time. Of course there was never anything to stop you getting to the nitty-gritty of the debate, but somehow this sort of pressure can affect people. Relating back to the flying of flags, there was a time when people seemed convinced that to fly a Union Jack somehow might antagonise someone else. there was never anything to stop you, but there were strange tales of officious council wallahs advising that a horizontal flag-pole was permissible but not a vertical one, or the other way round. I guess Britain so loves to enmesh itself in such arcane lore about the law that we are prone to this sort of thing. Tonight on Newsnight a guy was pointing out that France and Italy regularly ignore the European Court's Rulings if they clash with national prerogatives and apart from a tongue-lashing nothing happens, nor can happen as the European Court has no power to make us obey...... whereas the British way is to think that because some dopey guy in Brussels says something we must perforce obey - presumably so that we can be seen to be politically correct.... just as we listen to the dopey council guy who says our staff hand-washing tap is not in the correct place and our nail-brush provision is inadequate.... although to be fair the dopey council guy can shut our business down and put us all out on the streets, unemployed......

[Rowdon]

A good point was made on Radio 4 the other day: when people say "There's too much Health and Safety" or "It's Political Correctness gone mad" our problem should be with the "too much" or the "gone mad" bit, not the H&E or PC bit, both of which are good ideas: "too much" of anything is bad.

I also liked Sean Lock's idea that he wishes that "PC gone mad" was actually a policeman brought in for inner city disturbances: "Oh no! Here comes PC Gone Mad!!!"

[Steve Crook]

A good point was made on Radio 4 the other day: when people say "There's too much Health and Safety" or "It's Political Correctness gone mad" our problem should be with the "too much" or the "gone mad" bit, not the H&E or PC bit, both of which are good ideas: "too much" of anything is bad.

Try to find a reference to political correctness where it isn't someone saying "it's political correctness gone mad". There are a few but they're few and far between. That's about the only use of the term nowadays.

Then try and find a case where someone says something wouldn't be allowed because "it's against the health & safety rules" where the HSE has actually made a ruling on the issue. They're even fewer and further between.

Both phrases are just used as a general purpose bogeyman by petty functionaries and the ill informed

Steve

[Moor Larkin]

An interesting article here from 1995.......
THE Random House Dictionary defines political correctness as "marked by or adhering to a typically progressive orthodoxy on issues involving especially race, gender, sexual affinity or ecology." This definition certainly covers a multitude of sins committed by non-adherents of PC. Let's look at these sins of omission and commission.
Political correctness: speech control or thought control? | USA Today (Society for the Advancement of Education) | Find Articles

Hutchinson currently has:
Shorthand term for a set of liberal attitudes about education and society, and the terminology associated with them. To be politically correct is to be sensitive to unconscious racism and sexism and to display environmental awareness. However, the real or alleged enforcement of PC speech codes (‘people of colour’ instead of ‘coloured people’, ‘differently abled’ instead of ‘disabled’, and so on) at more than 130 US universities by 1991 attracted derision and was criticized as a form of thought-policing.

The current form of perceived PC seems to be of American origin. Perhaps this is why Europeans can sometimes seem more "politically incorrect" than us, as in the French banning the burkha and suchlike arrogant behaviour, as we are far more influenced by American cultural thinking about Inclusivity.

Going back to the premise of the Thread, you'd think PC would actively give movie-makers excellent preconceptions to challenge and so be a useful tool. I recall Mel Gibson getting a minor barracking for being anti-Gay when he had Patrick McGoohan throw the effete Prince's lover out the window in "Braveheart", but the scene has never been exised on British TV showings (so far as I know).



Of course my very use of the term *Gay* proves how well the process works.....................

[Steve Crook]

Hutchinson currently has:
Shorthand term for a set of liberal attitudes about education and society, and the terminology associated with them. To be politically correct is to be sensitive to unconscious racism and sexism and to display environmental awareness. However, the real or alleged enforcement of PC speech codes (‘people of colour’ instead of ‘coloured people’, ‘differently abled’ instead of ‘disabled’, and so on) at more than 130 US universities by 1991 attracted derision and was criticized as a form of thought-policing.

Note the use of the word "alleged"
Many such organisations, when challenged, say that they have no such policy and it's just a few people claiming that they do and other people believing them and passing it on as though it's an official ruling

Steve

[Mark O]

Link to some advertisements of yesteryear that would be deemed un-PC today.........

Cocaine, for toothache? The outrageous adverts that would never be allowed now | Mail Online