Vincent Broadhead

No one is disputing that, are they?

Steve

Steve Crook

It might be now. Then, the word was in quite common usage. You must consider everything in context.

Steve

Steve Crook

Yes, Rowden said "The fact is, though (sorry - I hate that phrase), whatever TDUDP was intended as, it was taken wrongly in general." I was querying that that was a fact.

Steve

DB7

Return of Bulldog Drummond with Ralph Richardson. Has fascist overtones and a xenophobic organisation (The Black Gang) not unlike Mosley's black shirts.

Steve Crook

And spookily enough, I then went to watch the history of sitcoms on BBC2 where Ben Elton said precisely the same thing. He added that the victims in Till Death weren't any of the people that Alf was complaining about, but Alf himself.

Johnny Speight was shown in an old interview saying that he didn't invent Alf Garnett, he just reported him.

Steve

Rowdon

Absolutely, Steve - that's why I put the "I hate that phrase" bracket. I should have just cut it out completely since there is no "fact" present in anything I wrote, just vague memory and opinion.
Having said that, Garnett did become something of a poster boy for the people Speight/Mitchell were having a go at, but that always happens with satire. Equally, many people who should have enjoyed the satire (anti-racists, let's say)hated it for the wrong reasons, too.
It's the quality of the thing which matters, though: if you watch an episode of TDUDP now, it stands up as comedy, whereas something like "Love Thy Neighbour" (even though Jack Smethurst was equally always the victim of his own stupidity) is just uncomfortable viewing.
As for Alf Garnett saying "coon", there's no point in pretending that people like him didn't say "coon" in those days. Speight probably had to fight to keep all those words in, but at least he managed to. Nowadays, writers have to avoid 'those' words on TV (for better or for worse) so we sometimes get a characterization which is unbelievable (a racist who never uses impolite terms, a normal bloke who gives his mates a hard time for using them) even though we hear those words every day on the streets, so we know someone is using them.
I just wonder what Alf would have said if, on being called "Shirley Temple" one too many times, Mike has spat back "You want to watch how you tak to me. One day I'm going to be the Prime Minister's father-in-law!"

glyn horton

Interesting about Alf Garnett in that it was so successful. Speight wrote 'Curry and Chips' at about the same time with Spike Milligan as an Irish-Pakistani but apparently the public and critics hated it even though Speight was trying to make the same point as he did with Alf. It only ran for one series. Everyone seemed to be accepting of Alf but not Spike blacked up. I didn't see the documentary about sitcoms but perhaps the comments from Ben Elton reveal the ambiguity (and as a result the problem some people have) with Alf Garnett. No-one doubts the intent of Speight and Mitchell but if Garnett was the victim this probably tended to make some viewers feel sympathy for him particularly if they agreed with his views - which was more likely at that time.

Steve Crook

Curry & Chips was just embarrassing for all concerned. I thought so at the time as well.

There was a good programme on Channel 4 last night called The Great British Black Invasion. That had fun pointing out the incongruity between the racist skinheads and the Ska & Reggae music they liked and the Rude Boys that they adopted their style from. It also showed how, although they had problems with racist taunts at first, it was probably the black football players who did a lot to kill off most of the racism in this country. It's hard to shout racist abuse at a black player when he's just scored the winning goal for your team.

They showed a clip from the Blood Donor episode of Till Death (yes, they did one as well as Hancock). In the Till Death one, that did look a lot like Honor Blackman playing the nurse. But she was only on screen (in this clip) briefly and didn't speak so I can't be sure.

Steve

WiseFilms

James M. sez:
Yes. Although Blazing Saddles comes close.
I think the great Griffith "racist" film, taken as a representation -(of the tremendous anti-negro bias of Southern feelings)- of that time in American history, is very true to life.
Those who can't look at history with a level perspective, are destined to have their emotions twisted and opinions distorted. Much like the sentiments of the Racist South during the Civil War.
To the list of real Politically Incorrect films, I will add:
The Terror of Tiny Town
Baby Doll
The Loved One
Barton Fink
Flesh for Frankenstein
The Night Porter
Ghost World ...and a movie I was disgusted by, but nonetheless qualifies:
Borat

pustice

Funny, where I came from most people agreed with Alfs comments.

Steve Crook

Its real message was subtle. Too subtle for some. But remember that Warren Mitchell is really a left-winger, Jewish, and really supports Spurs not West Ham.

As Johnny Speight said "I didn't create Alf Garnet. Society created him, I just reported him"

Steve

pustice

It wasn't subtle at all. It was accepted that Alf was only allowed to say the things he did, so that he could be proved 'wrong'

Tony Pendrey

What really dismayed Speight was that he wrote Alf Garnett as a character to be despised but the British public in general, came to revere him.

And that speaks volumes.

On the original topic, I suppose that "Love Thy neighbour" must rate pretty high as politically incorrect, both the TV series and the feature film.

I noticed that Jack Smethurst, who played the main character, has changed his tune on this "comedy". Back in the pre-DVD 90's he was scathing about it. He called it "a product of the 70's and that it where it should stay".

Now that it is available on DVD he has much more moderate views on the show.

Ah Yes, the Soviet Union. All them wheatfields and ballet in the evenings

Stiller

What about.......The Ringer?.....Came out last year with Johnny Knoxville

It was an atricous film......But the first half of it...Is the most politically incorrect film I have ever seen!!

Hackett

You would think PC is a funny thing to have or need in our democratic and liberal society. This country has been built on millions of lives being given for the right of anybody to hold and state an opinion that nobody else here agrees with. But with this Goverment I think the days are numbered.