Miniatures vs. C.G.I.?

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Quiller They even put dirt on the plane for realism, and added the right touches.

That's often a good way to tell what is real. Most CGI, and most sets come to that, are just too clean. It doesn't guarantee that if it's dirty it's real, but if it's spotlessly clean, be it a plane or a street, it's almost certainly a fake.

But for the best "effects" movie, just loook at Black Narcissus (1947).
It's all done with painted backdrops and hanging miniatures, but it's damned good. There are only a few places where you can see the join, and that's only when you see it on a very big screen, close up.

It's a film that's nearly 60 years old but it's effects are still far better than most modern effects.

Steve

[Quiller]

Steve, they even added - in True Lies - a CGI piece of paper that gets blown away from one of the jet-engines. Pretty impressive detail, really.

Dirt on studio sets - I think it's an interesting balance. I do like the old British films, when they'd build something in a studio. The production design always aged it just about right.

But one thing that can ruin a set is if there's too much light. I've seen a few modern films that had large-scale sets with way too much fake light on them. The huge studio exterior of the bank in The Inside Man (filmed in a dock-side warehouse), there was one shot that ruined the illusion for me. There was just too much light on it for it to be real. Shame really.

Black Narcissus. That's a film I'd heard so much about for years, never getting a chance to see it. I saw it on BBC2 and was blown away by its style. The matte shots are glorious. The one over the bell-tower, I felt giddy, it was that realistic.

Hanging miniatures - cool, I didn't know that.

Wasn't the whole film shot in a studio? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Quiller Steve, they even added - in True Lies - a CGI piece of paper that gets blown away from one of the jet-engines. Pretty impressive detail, really. Dirt on studio sets - I think it's an interesting balance. I do like the old British films, when they'd build something in a studio. The production design always aged it just about right. But one thing that can ruin a set is if there's too much light. I've seen a few modern films that had large-scale sets with way too much fake light on them. The huge studio exterior of the bank in The Inside Man (filmed in a dock-side warehouse), there was one shot that ruined the illusion for me. There was just too much light on it for it to be real. Shame really.

Lighting is always another problem - the half second delay between flicking the switch and the lights going out

Black Narcissus. That's a film I'd heard so much about for years, never getting a chance to see it. I saw it on BBC2 and was blown away by its style. The matte shots are glorious. The one over the bell-tower, I felt giddy, it was that realistic. Hanging miniatures - cool, I didn't know that. Wasn't the whole film shot in a studio? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

Not quite in a studio, but on a back lot in Pinewood, easily mistaken for the Himalayas. They built the ground floor of the "Palace of Women" to be solid enough for the actors to walk on. All the upper floors that you see on the screen (it's a 2 or 3 storey building on screen) are hanging miniatures. The shots of the mountains are paintings, as is the vertiginous drop below the bell tower. A wonderful piece of perspective painting by Peter Ellenshaw who went on to work for Disney.

I saw BN once at the Art Club in London. The mountains got quite a few murmurs of approval but the drop below the bell tower got a round of applause. Really it was only 2-3 feet above the ground :)


The overall look and feel was created by the designer Alfred Junge working in close collaboration with cinematographer Jack Cardiff. Both masters in their field and both ably assisted by a great team of set designers, artists and technicians.

Steve

[Quiller]

The upper floors as hanging miniatures - that's amazing! Are the shots kept still in the film, or do the cameras move when the hanging miniatures are on-screen?

Now, how long until they remake Black Narcissus? :blink: I can see it now: Julia Roberts and Catherine Zeta Jones.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Quiller The upper floors as hanging miniatures - that's amazing! Are the shots kept still in the film, or do the cameras move when the hanging miniatures are on-screen?

The cameras move - but only in & out and only when the break line is just a single straight line.

Now, how long until they remake Black Narcissus? :blink: I can see it now: Julia Roberts and Catherine Zeta Jones.

Arrgghh!!

But then again, Catherine ZJ being hurled over a cliff? There could be something worth watching in that.

Steve

[Quiller]

Steve, that's really clever, the fact they moved the cameras at all. I never noticed when I saw it, and I thought they'd built the buildings. Seriously impressed. I want to see it again now, just so I can check out how cool it looks.

Studio sets. That's just reminded me, the beginning of Peeping Tom. Is it me, or is that a really strange, abstract street they built? It always seemed rather odd to me. It was very fairytale like.

No, surely it would be Julia Roberts that gets hurled over a cliff. Now for that, I'd pay good money.

But seriously, one day, a Powell & Pressburger film will end up being remade. It's only a matter of time. I bet it'd be A Matter of Life And Death. George Clooney in the David Niven role...

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Quiller Steve, that's really clever, the fact they moved the cameras at all. I never noticed when I saw it, and I thought they'd built the buildings. Seriously impressed. I want to see it again now, just so I can check out how cool it looks.

There are other shots where they "fly past" the Palace - but that's a model of course, despite seeing "people" moving around. Oh they were very clever those Archers.

Studio sets. That's just reminded me, the beginning of Peeping Tom. Is it me, or is that a really strange, abstract street they built? It always seemed rather odd to me. It was very fairytale like.

Fairytale like? Or just artificial?

No, surely it would be Julia Roberts that gets hurled over a cliff. Now for that, I'd pay good money.

Maybe they'll throw them both off, then we'll both be happy.

But seriously, one day, a Powell & Pressburger film will end up being remade. It's only a matter of time. I bet it'd be A Matter of Life And Death. George Clooney in the David Niven role...

Sadly, it probably will at some time, with the dearth of new ideas in Hollywood at the moment. There was talk of somone remaking IKWIG a few years ago. In one of the documentaries the interviewer mentions this to Scorsese and he just says "Why?". He goes on to say that you could take the basic premise of the girl who want to get to the island but can't and by the time she can get there she no longer wants to go. It might be possible to make that into a quite different story. But no remake could possibly improve anything and the major films (or most of them) are currently available in quite a few releases.

Which reminds me, the Criterion DVDs of A Canterbury Tale are starting to be released. Rush out and buy a copy. You might want to get one to see yours truly in one of the documentaries on it - or you might even want to get it to see the film.

Steve

[Quiller]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook Fairytale like? Or just artificial?

I thought maybe Powell was going for a bit of german expressionism in the set design at the start. It was so blatant, it had to be deliberate.

Pity Scorcese didn't ask 'Why?' when he remade J. Lee Thompson's Cape Fear.

Originally Posted by Steve Crook Which reminds me, the Criterion DVDs of A Canterbury Tale are starting to be released. Rush out and buy a copy. You might want to get one to see yours truly in one of the documentaries on it - or you might even want to get it to see the film.

Excellant! How long's the documentary? Is it specific to the film, or Powell & Pressburger in general?

[Nick Dando]

Daniel Day-Lewis was trying to get a new version of Gone to Earth made a couple of years back, filmed in Eire. But it seems to have died a death. It would have been interesting to see what a new version of Mary Webb's story was like.
It was unclear, to me, which role DD-L would have played. Jack Reddin or Edward Marston, or even Abel Woodus or Vessons? Who knows.
Not quite the same without the Shropshire locations, though. Maybe they would have had to have used CGI, although the Powell and Pressburger version did use use several matte shots (cue continuity gaffes), an obvious wire tethering Foxy so that she could only run in one direction, and a splendid model of the mine shaft.

Nick

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Quiller Originally Posted by Steve Crook Which reminds me, the Criterion DVDs of A Canterbury Tale are starting to be released. Rush out and buy a copy. You might want to get one to see yours truly in one of the documentaries on it - or you might even want to get it to see the film. Excellant! How long's the documentary? Is it specific to the film, or Powell & Pressburger in general?

I don't know how much made the final cut - I haven't got my DVD yet. I expect it'll arrive in the next few days.

It was filmed by a chap from the BBC who came with us on our ACT Walk last year. (See here for details of this year's walk)

It'll probably be mainly about the film itself and the effects it's had on some people.

There is another documentary interviewing John Sweet when he came to Canterbury for a screening a few years ago. A commentary by Prof. Ian Christie. An interview with Sheila Sim (Lady Attenborough). A booklet of essays about the film. Excerpts from the American version with some additional scenes by Kim Hunter. Plus Listen to Britain by Humphrey Jennings.

Steve

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Nick Dando Daniel Day-Lewis was trying to get a new version of Gone to Earth made a couple of years back, filmed in Eire. But it seems to have died a death. It would have been interesting to see what a new version of Mary Webb's story was like. It was unclear, to me, which role DD-L would have played. Jack Reddin or Edward Marston, or even Abel Woodus or Vessons? Who knows. Not quite the same without the Shropshire locations, though. Maybe they would have had to have used CGI, although the Powell and Pressburger version did use use several matte shots (cue continuity gaffes), an obvious wire tethering Foxy so that she could only run in one direction, and a splendid model of the mine shaft. Nick

And the famous disappearing and reappearing mine engine house :)

It may not be the best film ever made, but the Shropshire scenery is lovely, and plays a major part in the film.

Steve

[julian_craster]

Would FLORENCE OF ARABIA be quite the epic that it is, if CGI effects
had been used in 1962 ?
Surely the wonder of this film is that it uses real deserts, with real battles and horsemen.....
CGI just turns everything into a video game, which of course is just what today's 'yoof' audiences want !
CGI keeps computer programmers, rather than *genuine* filmakers, in work !


Julian

[drunk_punk]

I am writing an essay about this topic, can anyone recomend any films where the miniatures are used well/ badly and the same with c.g.i. Personally i think c.g.i if not done well can rewin a film but if a mix of model and c.g.i is used the results can look quite good. For example lord of the rings used a nice combination of models and c.g.i.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by drunk_punk I am writing an essay about this topic, can anyone recomend any films where the miniatures are used well/ badly and the same with c.g.i. Personally i think c.g.i if not done well can rewin a film but if a mix of model and c.g.i is used the results can look quite good. For example lord of the rings used a nice combination of models and c.g.i.

Well I'd certainly suggest Black Narcissus for a great example of the old-fashioned way of doing special effects. Have a look at it & tell me how many you can spot.

Even on a 35mm print you'll only spot a few of them.

Steve

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by drunk_punk I am writing an essay about this topic, can anyone recomend any films where the miniatures are used well/ badly and the same with c.g.i. Personally i think c.g.i if not done well can rewin a film but if a mix of model and c.g.i is used the results can look quite good. For example lord of the rings used a nice combination of models and c.g.i.

Gladiator, not only the use of cgi in the convincing crowd and animal sequences but how much was it used to complete the Oliver Reed scenes after the great man passed away.

Freddy