Do Chavs learn Extreme Violence from films

[DB7]

Originally Posted by batman As Disraeli so correctly put it .... there are lies, damn lies and statistics. Bats.

As Socrates put it:

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook Christiane confirmed rumours that Kubrick had withdrawn A Clockwork Orange on police advice after threats were made against Kubrick and his family (the source of the threats was not discussed).

Must have been a Fatwah to have lasted thirty years....

I noticed that Malcolm McDowell recalled seeing youngsters 'dressed as' Clockworkers around the time of release, which he found both funny and a worry at the same time; that was in his voxpops on the BFforever prog a couple of weeks ago.

I wonder if some of the violence that happens when young men are drunk/drugged is inspired from their 'imagination' and that's why they sometimes go to the coma-inducing extremes that they appear to, if I am to believe anything I read in the nespaper or see on the TV.

It seems odd that university towns are known to hush up local suicides and the railways always refer to 'an incident on the line' for fear of 'copycatting' ....... Presumably the 'authorities' expecting a statistical number of young people to leap off bridges and railway platforms believe those same young people to be capable of watching vicious, 'pretend', violence at the cinema and remaining entirely unaffected.

But then if cinema doesn't get inside people's heads, what's it for anyway?

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin Must have been a Fatwah to have lasted thirty years.... I noticed that Malcolm McDowell recalled seeing youngsters 'dressed as' Clockworkers around the time of release, which he found both funny and a worry at the same time; that was in his voxpops on the BFforever prog a couple of weeks ago.

If they were going to a fancy dress party that's not a problem.
If they're kicking a tramp to death then it is a problem

I wonder if some of the violence that happens when young men are drunk/drugged is inspired from their 'imagination' and that's why they sometimes go to the coma-inducing extremes that they appear to, if I am to believe anything I read in the nespaper or see on the TV.

In the words of Phil Lynott, "Don't believe a word". Especially what's written in your "nespaper"

It seems odd that university towns are known to hush up local suicides and the railways always refer to 'an incident on the line' for fear of 'copycatting' ....... Presumably the 'authorities' expecting a statistical number of young people to leap off bridges and railway platforms believe those same young people to be capable of watching vicious, 'pretend', violence at the cinema and remaining entirely unaffected.

"are known to"? Citation please.
Visitors from abroad often tell me that they are amazed to hear the announcement on the tube that a train is delayed because there's a body under it. If it's announced over the PA, that's hardly being hushed up

But then if cinema doesn't get inside people's heads, what's it for anyway?

Nothing wrong with getting inside people's heads. It's what you put inside there that makes the difference

Steve

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook "are known to"?Citation please.

A spokesman for Metro operators, Nexus, said:
"One of our drivers notified control at 6am that there had been an incident on the line.
icNewcastle - Metro Death

Of particular concern for institutions is the possibility of "suicide clusters", where the death of one student seems to spark others at the same institution.
The best of times, the worst of times | Students | EducationGuardian.co.uk


Thought you might all enjoy this viewpoint from 1958:

Janet Gray watched TV and reported,
"It's Murder".
She put in a week's concentrated viewing on behalf of TV Mirror and reported back:
"Look out Jim! He's got a gun!"
The sound of a shot.
"Jim! Jim! What have they done to you!"
A woman's scream sounds in anguished tones.

Night after night we see bodies stagger and fall because someone has unkindly put a knife in their backs. Night after night the camera gives us a close-up of a lolling head or clutching hand.

This, in case you don't know, comes under the heading of drama. To make sure I wasn't prejudiced I watched both channels and counted the corpses and beatings-up as I went. Occasionally difficulties arose. I had to stand in front of the screen because some of those 'toughies' are screened as early as 7pm and my children were still watching.

My viewing notes went like this:
Murders - 13
Beatings up - 5
Fist fights - 6

Hardened viewers argue that they know it's only pretend. They can be cynically humorous about killing, but the impact of seeing a pretend murder is much greater than reading or just listening to the same story. That is a proved fact. Gradually we find that thrillers with no violence in them are dull. Can we get pleasure only from watching plays and films which show men and women at their worst? Do we really find it entertaining to see a man tied and beaten up? A woman manhandled by a gangster? Is it really entertaining to watch an actress expressing the mental torture of a mother seeing her child threatened with death? Have we all sunk to such depths that wallowing, second-hand, in brutal degradation is the only thing that excites us?"

Which, I suppose, could prove there's nothing to worry about or that nobody is listening - depends on what you want to believe, maybe.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin A spokesman for Metro operators, Nexus, said: "One of our drivers notified control at 6am that there had been an incident on the line. icNewcastle - Metro Death

Well, it was "an incident". That just sounds like a bad bit of corporate speak rather than an attempt to hush anything up. A death like that would be quite widely reported and as I said, many other transport companies do actually say there's a body under the train.

Of particular concern for institutions is the possibility of "suicide clusters", where the death of one student seems to spark others at the same institution.

The best of times, the worst of times | Students | EducationGuardian.co.uk

They're concerned about it of course, but I see no attempt to hush anything up. And the article does say that the student suicide rate is just the same as in the rest of the population

Thought you might all enjoy this viewpoint from 1958:

Very nice

Steve

[christoph404]

I always thought blaming films or TV programes for the ills in our society has been a major excuse and cop out for various governments over the years who want to hang the tension and unrest caused by unemployment and social depravation etc on something more tangible, and deflect attention from their own failure and inneptitude at addressing problems of crime and violence in our society. If you were to look at life in the USA for example, a very high murder rate using guns, and I don't think thats because US citizens watch too many westerns or gangster films, isn't it to do with a constitution that encourages gun ownership and makes them available on the next shelf to your breakfast cereal? I have always thought that the notion that violent films or TV programmes contribute to the crime and violence in our society to be utter S***E , it has been a theory advanced by the likes of Mary Whitehouse and others in the past and politicians generally don't dare to use that excuse any more because the public aren't prepared to be hoodwinked by that fantasy any more and rightly ridicule such silly notions. There are violent and unlawful people in this world and there always has been and posibly always will be, law abiding normal people are not transformed into gun weilding homicidal maniacs by watching a violent film, or a violent play(Shakespeare?) or reading a novel or comic containing violent scenarios.

[Torquemada]

Chavs only learn three things - 1. What they can get away with 2. What their rights 3. How to take advantage of people who make excuses for them. Everything else is incidental. Sorry to be downbeat but that's the sad reality.

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by Torquemada Sorry to be downbeat but that's the sad reality.

So Chavs are born not made? Bring on the eugenicists then. Presumably we can develop a genetic test for them in due course.

My proposal was that Chavs learn, not that they are caused. In the days when cowboys 'fought fair' and 'proper men' didn't kick, bite or stamp on the helpless, we had street fighting and violence, but did it not follow some sort of code? There also seemed an understanding of what uncontrolled violence does to human bodies, which seems absent in todays sheltered culture.

The arguments about it all being down to poverty and unemployment causes anger amongst the generation that lived through Depression and War and Austerity..... Interestingly they are also the generation that abolished all the corporal and capital punishments some now hanker for. They are also, perhaps the same people who will say the nature of the street violence they experienced is qualitatively different.

Something doesn't seem to add up. Making 'nice' films won't help, but stopping the glamourisation of violence might at least make some small contribution.

There was an advert aimed at boozy youth recently on British TV. You may have seen it. It showed a 'Spiderman'-type figure climbing scaffolding and performing 'feats' for the girls below. Then he fell and the smashed body metamorphosed back to a young broken-headed lad. I did wonder they didn't make the same advert. but with a comic-book hero beating a 'villain' to a pulp - the 'villain' then metamorphosing into a fracture-headed lad..... Presumably statistics reveal that many more drunken youths fall off scaffolding whilst 'showing off' to the girls than ever leave some poor devil bleeding against a kerb-stone.

[clitheroekid]

Charlie Brooker in Monday's Guardian

Young people today are nothing but trouble. They slouch. They're lawless. They tote knives and flob on the ground. Look into their eyes: there's no gratitude there. Just blank-eyed nihilism and belching. Although the belching's coming from lower down, from the mouth bit. Young people undermine society. They come over here, into our present, downloading our ringtones. Would you want your daughter marrying one? Young people think they own the place. Well they don't. Yet.

But what can be done? The softly-softly approach is as much use as a Plasticine ladder or a glass trampoline. Take a group of youths hanging out by the local bus stop, intimidating innocent pedestrians with their 21st-century patois. Now approach them. Try to point out where they're going wrong. Be patient. Take your time. Use diagrams. Will they listen? Will they heck. They won't even look you in the eye. While you politely set them straight, they stare at their shoes and snort, because you're old and dull and they hate you. That's how their minds work. They've got no respect for their superiors.
You can't win with young people. But you can punish them. The older male generation loves dreaming up punishments for the young. It's the only thing that still gets them aroused. Last week, moon-faced political letdown and professional idiot David Cameron suggested a new kind of penalty.

"I'd like to see judges and magistrates tell a 15-year-old boy convicted of buying alcohol or causing a disturbance that the next time he appears in court he'll have his driving licence delayed," he said, through his fat failing mouth, adding, "And then I'd like that boy to tell his friends what the judge said."

Dribbling gump though he is, Cameron's on to something here. And that bit where the crook-boy has to tell his mates what happened is the key.

In the mind of a young person, being told off is cool. An asbo, therefore, is like a badge of honour: a sort of alternative Victoria Cross. What's required is a form of punishment that genuinely humiliates the offender.

Every so often a comedy judge in America will sentence someone to some kind of embarrassing public penance: walking down the street in a chicken suit, and so on. We need to go one better, by establishing a dedicated 24-hour digital TV channel on which young offenders humble and debase themselves.

Here's how it works. Let's say a 16-year-old called Ryan has stolen a shopping trolley and spun it round and round in the town centre while screaming abuse at horrified passers-by. He's arrested and charged and hauled into court. The judge sentences Ryan to five hours' community service on Channel Loser.

As part of his punishment, Ryan has to hand over his mobile phone, so the police can search through his address book and text all his friends, telling them what time to tune in. Let's say it's 4pm. As the clock strikes four, Ryan's friends flop down on the sofa, switch on the box, and this is what they see.

Ryan is wearing nothing but a pair of bikini bottoms. "Hello," he says, reading slowly from the autocue. "My name's Ryan Daniels and I stole a trolley." Then the Thomas the Tank Engine theme music starts playing and Ryan has to dance to it. When the tune comes to an end, it instantly skips back to the beginning and Ryan has to start again. This sequence is repeated until he bursts into tears.

Then Ryan's mum walks in, spits on a bit of tissue, and wipes his face with it. Then she produces a bag of his laundry and goes through every item in it one by one, complaining bitterly about the state of his underpants and so on.

Once she's gone, Ryan climbs into a paddling pool filled with ice-cold water and sits down until his genitals have shrivelled to squinting point. Then he has to stand up and pull down his bikini bottoms, at which point a girl from Hollyoaks walks in, points and laughs in his face for 10 minutes.

Then Ryan has to push his face into a cow's backside. The sole concession to his personal dignity is a bucket on the floor to be sick in. Finally, there's a three-hour interactive section where the audience at home texts in phrases that Ryan has to read aloud. This, the simplest section, is also the most entertaining. Picture it.

Come the end of his punishment, Ryan will never offend again and probably won't even go outside again. Problem solved. What's more, we've all been entertained. Everybody wins. Cameron, if you're reading - you can have this idea for free.

What a good idea!

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by clitheroekid Charlie Brooker in Monday's Guardian ... What a good idea!

There's another one that doesn't understand the victims of this celebrity obsessed media drivel. That would be considered a prize, to appear on TV. No matter what they were made to do. Hasn't this columnist ever heard of Big Brother or X Factor? They are both forms of ritual humiliation in public but they both have people queueing up to appear on them.

Just because you (or I) don't want to appear on them don't assume that nobody else does

Steve

[Torquemada]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin So Chavs are born not made? Bring on the eugenicists then. Presumably we can develop a genetic test for them in due course. My proposal was that Chavs learn, not that they are caused. In the days when cowboys 'fought fair' and 'proper men' didn't kick, bite or stamp on the helpless, we had street fighting and violence, but did it not follow some sort of code? There also seemed an understanding of what uncontrolled violence does to human bodies, which seems absent in todays sheltered culture. The arguments about it all being down to poverty and unemployment causes anger amongst the generation that lived through Depression and War and Austerity..... Interestingly they are also the generation that abolished all the corporal and capital punishments some now hanker for. They are also, perhaps the same people who will say the nature of the street violence they experienced is qualitatively different. Something doesn't seem to add up. Making 'nice' films won't help, but stopping the glamourisation of violence might at least make some small contribution. There was an advert aimed at boozy youth recently on British TV. You may have seen it. It showed a 'Spiderman'-type figure climbing scaffolding and performing 'feats' for the girls below. Then he fell and the smashed body metamorphosed back to a young broken-headed lad. I did wonder they didn't make the same advert. but with a comic-book hero beating a 'villain' to a pulp - the 'villain' then metamorphosing into a fracture-headed lad..... Presumably statistics reveal that many more drunken youths fall off scaffolding whilst 'showing off' to the girls than ever leave some poor devil bleeding against a kerb-stone.

I wasn't suggesting they are born but that there are many other things that lead them to being what they are. Allowing them to act with impunity fosters the belief that they can act as they like and I see little evidence of people stopping them. But I don't want to bang on about social issues here because this is of course a movie site. Let's just say I don't really agree with your hypothesis.

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by Torquemada Let's just say I don't really agree with your hypothesis.

I'm not sure I do either......

But this old chestnut keeps cropping up over the years. Last night Youtube were 'on the spot' for carrying self-filmed gun videos on their site......

One of the things I also notice about Chavs/Thug discussion (this Thread I spawned after reading a more generalised one elsewhere on the forum) is that it is always somebody elses problem, somebody elses fault.

Now where have I seen that characterisation before....

[Torquemada]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin I'm not sure I do either...... But this old chestnut keeps cropping up over the years. Last night Youtube were 'on the spot' for carrying self-filmed gun videos on their site...... One of the things I also notice about Chavs/Thug discussion (this Thread I spawned after reading a more generalised one elsewhere on the forum) is that it is always somebody elses problem, somebody elses fault. Now where have I seen that characterisation before....

Ah Youtube propaganda is a diferent matter - the gang suspected of murdering little Rhys Jones have been allowed to openly advertised for members for months and that is what I am talking about when I say that allowing the yobs/chavs act with impunity means they will actually believe they can do as they like. No. And when tragedies occur should we be surprised? And all this stems from what you have mentioned: it always being someone else's problem to deal with. So I certainly support the censorship of self-agrandising propaganda. But serious film? No

[DB7]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook There's another one that doesn't understand the victims of this celebrity obsessed media drivel.

The name Charlie Brooker would signfy the article was a pi**-take.

[DB7]

Originally Posted by Torquemada Ah Youtube propaganda is a diferent matter - the gang suspected of murdering little Rhys Jones have been allowed to openly advertised for members for months and that is what I am talking about when I say that allowing the yobs/chavs act with impunity means they will actually believe they can do as they like. No. And when tragedies occur should we be surprised? And all this stems from what you have mentioned: it always being someone else's problem to deal with. So I certainly support the censorship of self-agrandising propaganda. But serious film? No

How can you seriously censor Youtube? I saw ITV News kicking up a stink last night but they're all too happy to show excerpts from Al Queda 'promos' of attacks on Allied soldiers or captured Westerners.