Cost of colour filming.

[ChristineCB]

Originally Posted by Cheeky Bob ...Dirk Bogarde once said...the film would have had a far longer shelf life if it had been (shot in color).

He's not the only one I've see such statements come from, and every time I've seen these similar comments from from filmmakers or critics, I know I've stumbled across a major idiot.

Because Content is so much more important - to me, as a film fan - than the color of the print.

It's like they adhere to "Judge A Book By The Cover's Color" notion.

Or maybe they mean Shelf Life as in "my film will be left on the shelf to collect dust and never watched". If that's the case, yes, I agree - they can make unwatchable films, but they still score high in the Major Idiot category.

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by ChristineCB He's not the only one I've see such statements come from, and every time I've seen these similar comments from from filmmakers or critics, I know I've stumbled across a major idiot.

Oh dear, that's Patrick McGoohan too then........ Strange to say however Mr. McGoohan seems to have been correct so far as broadcast media goes (for which he would get his royalties I assume). The B&W episodes have hardly been on TV for years, since an aborted 'season' on Channel 4 a while back. On the other hand the poorest examples of the whole 'Danger Man' portfolio get an airing most years on some channel or another. Koroshi/Shinda Shima were of course made in colour.......

[Mr Dean]

Originally Posted by julian_craster Some Danzigers colour productions: SATTELITE IN THE SKY THE SPIDER'S WEB A TASTE OF MONEY ESCORT FOR HIRE RICHARD THE LIONHART TV SERIES Other B FILMS IN COLOUR A YANK IN ERMINE

Thanks for pointing me towards these productions. It's been fun researching them, but I haven't been able to find anything that hints at why they used colour for what must have been second features. I can only suggest that perhaps Moor Larkin is right that Hollywood experience told them that the extra cost would be worth it to get their films booked against mainly B+W competition? Satellite in the Sky sounds amazing and I'd love to see it. IMDB lists the Danzigers as producers, but not their production company. George Périnal as DOP and 4-track mag stereo! Distributed by Warner Bros., it must have been an A feature?

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Mr Dean IMDB lists the Danzigers as producers, but not their production company.

Yes it does, at least it does for A Taste of Money (1960). Scroll down a bit. I didn't check the rest.

Check their full list for Danziger Productions Ltd.

If there are any that aren't on that list then you can add them, that's how the IMDb works

Steve

[orpheum]

Going back to the original point there were a number of factors which lead to a higher cost.These included:-
1 as already mentioned the fact that there were 3 films going through thje camera so the stock and processing costs would be presumably 3 times the cost of b/w
2The intensity of light needed for original 3 strip was far greater than b/w so this would mean more lighting and bigger crews.
3The producers had to hire a technicolour camera crew.This would include a colour consultant.There was always a credit for this consultant and very often it would be the ex wife of the founder of the company Natalie kalmus.Given that even the most experienced of camerman would have had to go on a course before he would be allowed to handle the camera this would undoubtedly have added to the cost of a camera crew on a technicolour film.
all this of course would have continued to apply at least till Technicolour abandoned the 3 strip addative process and went over to the monopack in the 1950s.

[christoph404]

I think Jack Cardiff was the first British cinematographer with the experience and training to be able to film in 3 strip Technicolor. He used the process to great effect on The Red Shoes and on other collaborations with Powell and Pressburger.IMHO those films display the most stunning use of that process.
It is interesting that by the sixties if a film was not being made in colour it would be considered low budget or on "the cheap" By that time filmakers were not only competing with the advent of colour TV but were making movies in the rightfull belief that if their film was to have an after life and be sold and seen on TV it had to be in colour especially for the American market where colour TV was more prevailent than in the UK. When Lew Grade was making programmes like The Saint he knew they would be more saleable to the US if they were in colour and his dictum to Patrick McGoohan on undertaking the making of "The Prisoner" was that it had to be in colour.This point is also made on the DVD commentary of the recently released "IF", American disributers insisted on the film being in colour and the producers agreed that the film would be more saleble to US TV audiences if filmed in colour, director Lindsay Anderson would have been happy to make the whole film in black and white, but at least he managed to sneak some black and white footage in there and incite the endless debate and myths as to why there are black and white scenes in the film! I think the advent of colour TV had a huge impact on the film industry, remember in the 1970s when colour TV was becoming popular in the UK the BBC was regularly lambasted by irate viewers who wrote in to complain about the fact that " why should we be subjected to screenings of these old black and white films when we are paying for a colour TV licence!" Thankfully times have changed since then and most people recognise the artistic merit of a black and white film, and now it takes a very brave and accomplished filmaker to have the courage to make a film in black and white for aesthetic reasons, Steven Speilberg with Schindlers List being the most obvious example but I can't think of any others and it looks like colour filming is well and truly here to stay with black and white used for period and aesthetic effect if at all. How times have changed indeed!

[Moor Larkin]

Originally Posted by christoph404 When Lew Grade was making programmes like The Saint he knew they would be more saleable to the US if they were in colour and his dictum to Patrick McGoohan on undertaking the making of "The Prisoner" was that it had to be in colour.

And yet in interviews, Patrick McGoohan has maintained he 'pleaded' with Lew Grade to put DM in colour but Lew said it 'would be too expensive'........ McGoohan said he didn't think it was that much more expensive (but you got the feeling that, like many of us, he didn't really know)

[christoph404]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin And yet in interviews, Patrick McGoohan has maintained he 'pleaded' with Lew Grade to put DM in colour but Lew said it 'would be too expensive'........ McGoohan said he didn't think it was that much more expensive (but you got the feeling that, like many of us, he didn't really know)

were ITC making other programmes in colour at the same time as making Danger Man? The first series of The Saint was in black and white and US TV wanted more but only if it was colour, I wonder if Lew Grade decided after a certain point (1967ish?) that everything needed to be colour in order to be sold to US TV? I get the feeling Grade would have carried on with black and white filming but there came a point where US TV networks would simply not buy in monchrome TV programmes so there was no choice but to film in colour. Perhaps Danger Man was made before that kind of demand for colour was prevailent?

[Mr Dean]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook Yes it does, at least it does for A Taste of Money (1960). Scroll down a bit. I didn't check the rest. Check their full list for Danziger Productions Ltd. If there are any that aren't on that list then you can add them, that's how the IMDb works Steve

I was referring specifically to Satellite in the Sky -- I looked at all the others and researched the Danzigers on several websites.

I noted that on Satellite in the Sky, a different production company 'Tridelta Productions' was used, one which the UK Film Council would today perhaps call a 'Single Project Vehicle' since it has only one IMDB entry. I presume this was because the Danzigers were working in a different context, perhaps with Warner Bros money?

I know how IMDB works (I've been using it since it began at Cardiff University) and I have admiration for anyone with time to add extra info on entries. If only there was more time to do it.

[D Cairns]

By the fifties, Eastmancolour was coming in, which was cheaper and less cumbersome (but less beautiful) than three-strip Technicolor.
Other reasons many avoided colour:
1) in the early days it required more light, meaning more time spent lighting and more discomfort for the actors.
2) Natalie Kalmus. I'll let Steve explain this one!

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by orpheum Going back to the original point there were a number of factors which lead to a higher cost.These included:- 1 as already mentioned the fact that there were 3 films going through thje camera so the stock and processing costs would be presumably 3 times the cost of b/w 2The intensity of light needed for original 3 strip was far greater than b/w so this would mean more lighting and bigger crews. 3The producers had to hire a technicolour camera crew.This would include a colour consultant.There was always a credit for this consultant and very often it would be the ex wife of the founder of the company Natalie kalmus.Given that even the most experienced of camerman would have had to go on a course before he would be allowed to handle the camera this would undoubtedly have added to the cost of a camera crew on a technicolour film. all this of course would have continued to apply at least till Technicolour abandoned the 3 strip addative process and went over to the monopack in the 1950s.

I don't think many paid to have Natalie Kalmus on hand. She was forced on them.
She tried hard to make every Technicolor film conform to a standard that they set. But luckily Jack Cardiff was more artistic than that. Many times his work was returned by the Technicolor labs saying that it was badly exposed and was unusable. But that was just what he wanted
And Micky Powell stood up for him and let the Technicolor people (especially Natalie Kalmus) know that a good film was a work of art and didn't always conform to whatever standards she laid down.

She tried to control the colours used in the set design and costumes as well. Luckily the Archers just said "yes dear" and then got on with doing it the way they wanted

Steve

[JamesM]

What role did Joan Bridge play if Natalie Kalmus was trying to pull the strings? Does anyone happen to know if she is still alive?

[christoph404]

I would have thought the colour versus monchrome choice ultimateley boiled down to one thing, Cost. Yes colour filming needed more light more electricity more technicians more raw film and processing materials, more time, and all those factors individually and collectively simply equate to ....more money.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by JamesM What role did Joan Bridge play if Natalie Kalmus was trying to pull the strings? Does anyone happen to know if she is still alive?

Natalie was the wife of Herbert T. Kalmus, the inventor of Technicolor. So she was trying to protect what was theirs - although she did seem over-protective and didn't seem to have much idea about what could be created artistically with it

Joan Bridge is only credited with Natalie on a few titles so I presume she took over, especially in Britain, when Natalie eased back and concentrated on hassling the American film-makers

I don't know if Joan is still alive. Her death hasn't been reported anywhere that I can see

Steve

[Moor Larkin]

Just googled a Blog by a chatty guy who postulated that B&W movies were actually killed off by Television. By 1967/68 colour TV had penetrated America to the extent that networks were under pressure to broadcast colour shows because the audience was angry at spending loads of cash to watch what they could have watched on their old sets.......

Hollywood saw the future and switched their output 'overnight' to colour features only. And where Hollywood leads...........

Don't know if the stats back him up but it's a neat idea.