penfold

But I hope they do include an American 6 footer, as Big Joe was almost the squadron mascot at the time of the dams raid....and would later, IIRC, lead the squadron himself...

Bit of a Bay Window, what??

lupinpooter

Exactly right.

Retaining the dog's name is not some automatic guarantee of historical accuracy in the rest of the film, nor is changing it an automatic guarantee of historical inaccuracy. It is a minor point!

DB7

Would three of you please refrain from exchanging insults. Either discuss the film or leave the topic well alone.

Blanche Fury

It's interesting to note that there's a long history of words that were originally intended to be abusive being proudly adopted by the groups they were aimed at. 'Tory' is one example; I believe this began in the eighteenth century and originally meant a bunch of crooks (so maybe some things don't change), but is now used by Conservatives and others in a neutral or even affectionate sense. 'Queer' is another; it was meant to be offensive and aggressive but was adopted by gays (in the seventies?), presumably as a way of saying 'You think you can cow us by giving us rude names, but look, we are stronger than you think and can turn the abuse you heap on us to our own advantage.' I suspect that 'queer'. unlike 'gay', is still a word that would be deemed offensive when used by anyone other than gays themselves. 'Nigger', surely, is still in this category, though maybe in a few decades it will have lost its power to offend. It is still, however, an offensive word when used by anyone outside the group to whom it refers, or when used (as I have used it in the post) in a lexicographical discussion.

Incidentally, the word in question is used frequently in Steinbeck's 'Of Mice and Men' (and the Sinise film version), a book very frequently taught in English schools. I have taught it to classes many times and it always leads to interesting discussions about the word and the wisdom or otherwise of teaching a book which includes it. I've never heard anyone in authority suggest that the book should be not taught, let alone 'banned', for its use of the word.

CaptainWaggett

Have you read The Day They Came to Arrest the Book? It's an excellent novel about a well-meaning attempt to ban Huckleberry Finn in a school because of theuse of the n-word. The censors aren't portrayed as book-burning crazies and the arguments are very interesting.

Blanche Fury

No, I've never come across it - thanks for drawing my attention to it. I've just ordered a copy (I think my budget can run to £1).

Reading the Amazon reviews, I find this comment - "When a classic such as Mark Twain's The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn comes under attack, it's downright impossible not to take sides, and the debate all too often devolves into righteous indignation and, before you know it, personal attacks and the most uncivil of arguments. " Seems uncomfortably close to home re our own dear Britmovie posters.

From the reviews I've read it seems that it's black pupils who object to the book. I've had occasional pupils object to 'Of Mice and Men', but they've always been white; I can't remember a black student objecting. Of course, it's a profoundly anti-racist book, while 'Finn' is, at best, a lot more ambivalent on this subject.

I'd resist attempts to 'ban' 'Finn', but I'd want to contextualise (a rather ugly word, sorry) it. Books about the dams raid should certainly include the name of Gibson's dog, but films are aimed at a far wider audience than books and it's much harder to contextualise facts such as this. For this reason I think the film shouldn't use the original name (and I'm sure it won't, if it gets made), though I'm slightly reluctant to say this.

716Jones

Getting a bit off topic, bats, but I was interested in your comment about the uniforms in Zulu. If the soldiers at Rorke's Drift weren't wearing red, what colour were they wearing?

batman

Khaki apparently. I read that in a book I got from the Rorke's Drift museum.

Edit - having done a bit of research it seems the soldiers wore a mix of uniforms. In the film he regular army wear dress uniforms, in reality some of them wore a more a more basic version of that uniform, including the red tunics. The others wore khaki tunics because they felt less exposed against the background.

Edit 2 - here's another version ... they did not wear sparkling white pith helmets. They were stained a tan colour (with tea or coffee) and the bright scarlet uniforms were always covered in dust making them appear brown.

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

EHV_Emmetts

I've seen a picture taken after the battle and the soldiers are wearing black coloured uniforms.

Back on topic:

I hope there is not a remake of The Dam Busters.

716Jones

The uniforms would have started out as scarlet, but a few months campaigning would have changed them considerably, I've seen contemporary drawings that show the men practically in rags! The colour would certainly have faded and both tunics and trousers would have been patched with whatever cloth the lads could find. I doubt whether any regular army soldiers would have been wearing khaki, though some of the colonial odds and sods around at the time probably wore dull coloured clothing. Officers at that time did have a dark blue patrol jacket and some officers did wear these at Isandlwana but I don't know if Bromhead or Chard wore them.

batman

I read about the blue tunics, from the research I did it appears Chard and Bromhead wore red (albeit very dirt).

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

cooleyn

Hmmm....

Regarding this dog, thing, let me throw another completely irrelevant tuppenceworth in...

As a born and bred celtic person from Scotlandshire, would it not be considered equally as offensive as a black doggie's name, to remake this film with the words "England" and "English" still being used incorrectly instead of "Britain" and "British"?

See me? (donning my Rab C. Nesbitt persona for a moment) I personally cannae give a toss about it, because I'm so used to it, and can almost believe the standard "well, you know what we mean" response to this ancient Scots/Irish/Welsh complaint.

But bearing in mind that this whole issue of the use of the dog's name (or not) is to avoid causing offence, does anybody think it might be relevant to also avoid causing offence to the more touchy, nationalistic members of my countrymen on this occasion by not referring to the British nation as England?

Whoops - here come the "you narrow-minded Scottish ******" comments!

Honesty, I'm not - but consider this famous line for a moment, will you:

"In 1940, Scotland stood alone against Nazi Germany"

No of course it's not technically true, but for "goodness sake, you know what I mean, you bunch of ultra-sensitive people"

See what I'm getting at? No, neither do I.

Discuss.

Then invade Scotland if you wish, stopping at the very nice Annandalewater services north of Lockerbie if you can, where it is rumoured that William Wallace once stopped to refuel his Panzer tanks in 1066.

penfold

If it is remade, as I have said earlier in the thread, I hope the origins of the aircrew are accurately represented; that is, fewer British crew, more from Canada, Australia, New Zealand and even an American.
So long as we don't have Mel Gibson as Barnes Wallace shouting 'Freedom' all the dam time....

The thing you - rightly - complain about, the Britain/England thing - I get the impression that mostly comes from our American friends....??

Bit of a Bay Window, what??

Harleybloke

Nice one Penners................

.....You couldn't hear it, if they were shooting at me with howitzers!

Wicked Lady

Mel Gibson as Barnes Wallis??

Oh...the horror......the horror.......