Modular

Yes, legally you're entitled to record a copy for yourself from the telly. However, the copyright laws (and they are a legal speciality in themselves) prevent anything else.

Indeed you're right in saying "there is a vibrant market for this material". But vibrant doesn't always equate to financial viability (when having to pay for the licence to release the material).

As for the issue of material in the 'Public Domain'... Google the issue. It's easier than for me to type it all out here. A basic 'rule of thumb' is that any bootleg you see advertised on eBay (or anywhere else) that claims the material is in the public domain is talking crap, and is misleading people into believing the material they're selling is above board. It's not.

Steve Crook

It varies, a lot, from one country to another. And much of the law isn't fully tested in the courts so nobody's really sure what some of the more ambiguous parts mean.

Public Domain does apply to a lot of American stuff. But usually not to British stuff of a similar age when sold in America. Although it's understandable why many American sellers don't realise this because they're only going by the law as it stands in their own country, thinking that it applies no matter what they're selling. They're wrong.

The Copyright law pages on Wikipedia are quite good. That's the general case. Then read the UK specific pages and see how they differ.

Steve

Modular

Indeed.

My comments were generally referring to the situation here in the UK, though I'm by no means an authority on the subject.

I know the BBC legal people are fairly rigorous in having bootlegged material (of theirs) removed from eBay, and sites closed down when it comes to their attention.

I think what people forget (or rather, don't realise) is that buying illegal bootlegs of small and specialised genres like old British films or archive television actually hurts the possibility of those titles being finally released legitimately on established labels.

Let's face it; someone who's bought a bootlegged series on DVD-R for twenty quid is unlikely to double-dip on a legal DVD release for another thirty pounds six months later when it comes out officially. Essentially, it's a sale lost, and in a small specialised genre every sale counts.

marker

well I wish they would release what episodes are available I have the legal Vhs with the 3 eps on, but I also have other eps that I have acquired over the years, but would add not bought, I would be very happy to buy any release at all of these from the bbc, why this series has never been brought out on dvd beggars belief

marker

orpheum

Copyright in the USA used to be 2 periods of 29 years.However if you did not renew after the first period the film would fall into public domain.There was a person by the name of Raymond Rohauer who renewed a lot of these copyrights under his company name including a lot of Buster Keatons films.He didnt do this for altruistic reasons .He wasnt very popular at the time since in those days pre video lots of companies were busy churning out 8mm copies of Chaplin L and H and lots of other silent stars and i have the suspicion that they were not exactly hunting down cop[yright owners to press a cheque in their hands.Some of you may also remember that Bob Monkhouse had a long trial at the Old Bailey as he was accused of having copyright films in his collection.However he was acquitted.In fact there was also a thriving trade in 16mm features.No idea how anybody came by them.Let us be realistic the majority of films that we are interested in will never find a distributor on dvd.The idea that we are either stopping a legit release or putting vast sums in pirates pockets is with all due respect to previous views extremely fanciful and slightly irrational.

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Modular

I don't believe anyone mentioned "putting vast sums in pitate's pockets". An over-exageration of what was actually said.

And to reiterate an earlier point, bootlegging of minority material does prevent legitimate releases, as it kills an already small potential purchasing audience, regardless whether you accept the fact or not.

Go and actually talk to one or two of the small labels out there releasing minority material on DVD. It might prove to be an eye-opener for you.

orpheum

Your opinion is not a fact

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Modular

I'm stating fact, not opinion, though you are perfectly entitled to yours.

orpheum

i have been involved in the copyright field and i believe that i know rather more about it than you.

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Modular

Well bully for you!

I'm actually talking about the DVD market... we appear to be at cross purposes here.

But by all means feel free to correct anything I've mentioned on the issue.

nanduthalange

I believe that, in the UK, The copyright on broadcast material lapses after 50 years.

I'm a little perplexed on the strong views about illegally copied material. I have, through the kindness of many people on this site, managed to get hold of films that are never likely to be released commercially. Yet these recordings - once distributed - are illegally made. Without such recordings, a large part of our TV and film heritage would be irredeemably lost. I'm all for it, myself, and I doubt that anyone is making vast profits from such enterprises.

I didn't really mind that much whether the Media Classic recordings of Scotland Yard were "legal" or not. It's not illegal to possess them; they are not likely to released officially, and now, for a reasonable price, I can enjoy the whole series, sans advertisments.

In fact, I recently added Saber of London and Scales of Justice to my collection from the same source.

Modular

If I may elaborate.

Personally, I see nothing wrong in trading (or being sent a gratis copy from a kind soul) of material that isn't commercially available. It's still illegal, but small potatoes.

It's when you have 'money-grabbers' who have simply recorded off the telly, or taken advantage of BitTorrent sites (the premise of which is to share without making a profit), and then have the bare-faced temerity to lie and deceive those who know little different that what they're selling is legal (with a poppycock disclaimer about being given permission from the lawful copyright holders)... that's when I object.

If the individual behind Media Classic wasn't 'in it for the money' (and it certainly isn't for philanthropic reasons), they would make their (television sourced) recordings available to all (and for free) via a BitTorrent site.

If you don't mind Media Classic doing what they're doing, would you mind if we all began doing it, and started selling stuff?

The truth is (whether one or two individuals can see it or not), trading in minority material (such as Scotland Yard) does little to harm a legitimate release in the future, as most people will go out and buy the pukka versions anyway.

However, when somebody has paid twenty or thirty quid for an equivalent bootleg, there's not much chance they will 'double-dip' if the title is subsequently released legally (thus adversely affecting sales which could make the difference between breaking even or making a loss). And this issue may indeed influence a decision as to release a particular title in the first place.

marker

I must admit that Modular has a point, I bought a bootleg set of Huggets on ebay a while back, a few months later an official release came out, as the bootleg was viewable I did not feel I could justify spending another 20 quid or so on the official one, to be honest I feel bad about this, but the copyright holders should be far more liberal and put there stuff in the marketplace, or the bootleggers will take advantage.
I am amazed of late just how much more bootleg stuff there is available on Ebay and often being sold alongside recent legit releases.

Cheers Marker

Modular

I think part of the problem is that, as consumers, people don't understand the DVD market particularly well (and why indeed should they).

It's important to appreciate just how small the archive television (or old British film) market actually is. It’s very much a minority interest.

Let's put the issue into context. If someone were to buy a bootleg copy of Spiderman 3 or a Walt Disney title, it would be small fry in comparison to the millions of legitimate copies sold worldwide.

By comparison, if we consider an old black & white television series or film (like Scotland Yard), how many legitimate copies do people think it would actually sell? Well (and going on similar titles of the past), it would be doing well if it surpassed 1000 sets.

The difference between breaking even and making a loss at this end of the scale is very small indeed. And if bootleggers illegally selling a title remove just 10% of that potential (already small) market, a legitimate release just isn't financially viable.

Network (I think it was Tim Beddows) fairly recently illustrated the point of people's misconception of how small (and vulnerable) the market for this kind of material really is by mentioning the sales of one of their titles. I believe it was a surprise to all those present just how low the figure was!

This is just one of the reasons why some people’s favourite television and film titles never seem to get a DVD release. If the potential market for a title isn’t sufficient enough to break even, then there’s little chance of it being released. Sure, bootleggers may (at least on the surface) appear to ‘fill the gap’, but their very existence may ultimately harm a legitimate product from being released.

marker

another example of a bootleg I bought called LIGHT UP THE SKY and what happens a few months later its going to be reissued later this month, in this case the copy I have has a fault on the credits, so I will be buying the legit release in fact its on order, trouble is you look on ebay and see a film you cant get so you buy it little knowing its going to be released soon, and I count my self as being informed as I belong to this forum where we get mostly advance warning of stuff about to be released, also I bet the ebay bootlegger continues to sell on ebay. also as a slap in my direction the legit copy is cheaper than the bootleggers, perhaps I should now sell my boot copy on ebay as its now of no use to me, a sort of double boot, prob get chased by the bootlegger for using his artwork, I only wanted to watch a few old films its a Minefield if I re sell a bootleg do I become a bootlegger as well ?

Cheers Marker