The Ancient Celts of Europe and their influence within cinema.

[TartanTrousers]

Hello everyone, my name is Ben Coulbrook, a third year student at the university of Lincoln currently working through my final year, and thus, through my dissertation.



I was wondering if I could ask some of you fine folk if you’d be interested in answering a few questions on the subject of the ancient Celts, and their representation and influence within cinema. I’ve read some very intelligent opinions within this forum, ones in which I believe would be invaluable as primary sources. Please, if anyone is interested in helping me explore this facet of Celtic culture in my own little way, then I would be very grateful.



Answer as many or as little of the questions as you like. Incredibly detailed to violently short responses are welcome, and please remember that it is your opinion I’m after (as I can’t express my own within the dissertation!) so don’t get to hung up on getting the facts just right.



I’m required to tell you that your answers will be used within the dissertation as primary sources.



Some of these are history related, so if you don't wish to answer them then that is fine. The more film centric questions are 4, 5, 6 and 7. I've included the more history orientated questions as the view of modern day consumers regarding Celtic history is a very important part of my subject.



So onto the questions!



1. Please introduce yourself; Please state if you have any interest in Celtic culture or film making.



2. Because of oral traditions and a lack of written text, many firsthand Celtic tales from the period of Celtic European settlement have been lost. Do you believe that this loss, propagated by Roman accounts, second hand Irish writings and more recent Druidic practises has fostered a culture which is all too willing to forget the Celts ancient origins, and stereotype Celtic behaviour and stories according to these second hand accounts?



3. If so, do you believe this to be simply be the natural progression of storytelling as pertains to almost all ancient cultures, or an unfortunate set of circumstances?



4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?



5. The fantasy genre can be argued to be highly steeped in Celtic influences. However, do you believe this to be the case and if not, what counter claim do you have regarding his argument?



6. Do you believe that the Celts of ancient Europe are underutilized within the film industry? If so, why?



7. How deep do you believe Celtic influence to be embedded in the British film industry?

Thank you very much for your time.

[GRAEME]

Ha! Ha! Very good!

[will.15]

name='TartanTrousers']



4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?





Thank you very much for your time.

Leprechauns!

[penfold]

1. Please introduce yourself; Please state if you have any interest in Celtic culture or film making.



Penfold; I do have an interest in mythology, and film, but not specifically Celtic culture or filmmaking.



2. Because of oral traditions and a lack of written text, many firsthand Celtic tales from the period of Celtic European settlement have been lost. Do you believe that this loss, propagated by Roman accounts, second hand Irish writings and more recent Druidic practises has fostered a culture which is all too willing to forget the Celts ancient origins, and stereotype Celtic behaviour and stories according to these second hand accounts?



That the only written accounts of Celtic culture from or near their time comes from the writings of Greek and Roman historians - the former inclined to their own mythmaking, the latter inclined towards anti-'barbarian' propaganda, has meant that the stereotype they created has rarely been challenged; and where there is a stereotype, there's a filmmaker.....but having said that, the modern 'Druids' have done far worse damage....apart from The Wicker Man, possibly, fun though that is.



3. If so, do you believe this to be simply be the natural progression of storytelling as pertains to almost all ancient cultures, or an unfortunate set of circumstances?



A combination of both; the Roman oppression of celtic culture is a large part of the reason; as is the late adoption of literacy by the Celts, meaning so many tales were lost or heavily corrupted by the time they were recorded; that is the danger facing all oral traditions, up to and including traditional song and dance and WW1.



4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?



Not any Celtic film as such, but films with influences including Celtic mythology; The Green Knight, and Excalibur, take themes from Arthurian tales with their roots in Celtic mythology; Excalibur in particular conveys the changeover between the Celtic belief system to the Christian one. Similarly The Wicker Man takes imagery from Celtic beliefs (But The Wicker Man from Tacitus' accounts, IIRC)



5. The fantasy genre can be argued to be highly steeped in Celtic influences. However, do you believe this to be the case and if not, what counter claim do you have regarding his argument?



Very much so. If you take the Arthurian tales as an adoption of earlier Celtic Tales, then what is Star Wars but a further retelling of the stories, with Luke being Arthur?? However, the only caveat I would make is that such tales are universal amongst many cultures...



6. Do you believe that the Celts of ancient Europe are underutilized within the film industry? If so, why?



Yes, but it is because so little is actually known....and mostly wrongly. The Greeks and Romans are better documented and represented in museums....apart from in Dublin. You could say the same for the Phoenicians.



7. How deep do you believe Celtic influence to be embedded in the British film industry?



No, not really...there are a few figures, Neil Jordan for one, who wear them on his sleeve, but it's hard to perceive much other influence.

[Steve Crook]

1. Please introduce yourself; Please state if you have any interest in Celtic culture or film making.



Steve Crook, a Londoner of Welsh and Irish (but not Scottish) stock so yes, I'm interested in Celtic culture as it is represented in film or in any other way



2. Because of oral traditions and a lack of written text, many firsthand Celtic tales from the period of Celtic European settlement have been lost. Do you believe that this loss, propagated by Roman accounts, second hand Irish writings and more recent Druidic practises has fostered a culture which is all too willing to forget the Celts ancient origins, and stereotype Celtic behaviour and stories according to these second hand accounts?



Are you just asking about ancient Celtic culture? As Penfold said, very little can be known about that with any certainty. But what about modern Celtic culture? It is still quite distinct from English culture and is stronger in Wales and Ireland than it is in Scotland.



3. If so, do you believe this to be simply be the natural progression of storytelling as pertains to almost all ancient cultures, or an unfortunate set of circumstances?



Not applicable (until the points in Q2 can be clarified)



4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?



There are some films that have been made of Celtic myths as passed down through oral tradition.



e.g. Y Mabinogi (2003)



5. The fantasy genre can be argued to be highly steeped in Celtic influences. However, do you believe this to be the case and if not, what counter claim do you have regarding his argument?



The fantasy genre can be steeped in Celtic influences. It can equally be steeped in many other influences. When I think of fantasy I don't necessarily equate that to anything Celtic.



6. Do you believe that the Celts of ancient Europe are underutilized within the film industry? If so, why?



Because they all died out before film was invented

Or do you mean stories about the ancient Celts?



7. How deep do you believe Celtic influence to be embedded in the British film industry?



Not much at all. There are some British film makers who are proud of their Celtic roots and make use of those in their films, but not many, and not many successful film makers.



Steve

[TartanTrousers]

Thank you very much for your feedback gentlemen, it is very much appreciated!



To answer some of your questions Mr Crook, the dissertation is based on storytelling pertaining to ancient Celtic culture, BUT the effects of modern day Irish, Welsh and English influences is a very important issue regarding this, so please feel free to comment on either sphere of discussion if you so wish.



Secondly, question six does relate to stories based around the ancient Celts (think of films such 300 or Spartacus as examples relating to other cultures) sorry if that was not abundantly clear at first.



Mr Penfold, you make some very fine points, but I wished to ask if you could elaborate on your point that the “Druids' have done far worse damage.” Why do you believe this? What is your opinion of modern day Druidic circles and the kind of practises they teach regarding Celtic beliefs?



Finally, Will.15, that is quite possibly the most awe-inspiring image I’ve ever laid eyes on. Is that a still from a movie? If so, I need to see that movie, my life depends on it!

[CaptainWaggett]

name='TartanTrousers']

Finally, Will.15, that is quite possibly the most awe-inspiring image I’ve ever laid eyes on. Is that a still from a movie? If so, I need to see that movie, my life depends on it!

It's from one of the key texts in the Celtic revival



[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Darby-OGill-Little-People-DVD/dp/B0001IMCAM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1269347034&sr=8-1]Darby O'Gill and The Little People [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: Albert Sharpe, Janet Munro, Sean Connery, Jimmy O'Dea, Kieron Moore, Estelle Winwood, Walter Fitzgerald, Denis O'Dea, J.G. Devlin, Jack MacGowran, Farrell Pelly, Nora O'Mahoney, [/ame]



For some Welsh mysticism, you can't go wrong with The Halfway House and The Three Weird Sisters and for the Scottish connection, I'm surprised Mr Crook didn't mention I Know Where I'm Going

[penfold]

name='TartanTrousers']



Mr Penfold, you make some very fine points, but I wished to ask if you could elaborate on your point that the “Druids' have done far worse damage.” Why do you believe this? What is your opinion of modern day Druidic circles and the kind of practises they teach regarding Celtic beliefs?

!

It's not the promulgating the belief system or the mythology I have a problem with so long as it has genuine roots; the tales must survive through their retelling, whether as a folk tradition to be preserved or as a living faith is entirely their business, and I will applaud them either way.

It's the way that for the last century they have, in the public imagination, replaced the bloodthirsty human-sacrificing stereotype of hostile Roman accounts by creating a new, equally ludicrous stereotype of middle-class men parading around Stonehenge, enacting rituals that are as ancient in their heritage as the motorcar, and a deal less historically accurate than the Asterix comic books. The truth, shown by how Celtic belief elements survive in modern life, in ostensibly Christian celebrations, must have been more powerful than Ken Barlow in a bedsheet.

Hope this is helping you, er, Mr Trousers???

[TartanTrousers]

It is, very much so. Your point contrasts very well with a Druid who I recently interviewed, who believed that Druidism was evolving rather than replacing Celtic beliefs (a view that I disagree with.)



Thank you Mr Waggett, for 2.99 that film seems a steal and is thus ordered. I also found a film called “The Gnome Mobile” which on account of its name and fantastic cover has also been ordered.

[Steve Crook]

name='CaptainWaggett']For some Welsh mysticism, you can't go wrong with The Halfway House and The Three Weird Sisters and for the Scottish connection, I'm surprised Mr Crook didn't mention I Know Where I'm Going

Three Weird Sisters - co-scripted by that well known Welshman Dylan Thomas, who didn't speak Welsh



I Know Where I'm Going! is often described as Celtic, but it isn't really very Celtic. It's more just "metropolitan and modern" clashing with "country and traditional". There is quite a bit of Gaelic spoken in it, but that's about as Celtic as it gets.



Steve

[CaptainWaggett]

name='Steve Crook']Three Weird Sisters - co-scripted by that well known Welshman Dylan Thomas, who didn't speak Welsh



[

But the Celts didn't speak Welsh so that's OK

[penfold]

name='Steve Crook']Three Weird Sisters - co-scripted by that well known Welshman Dylan Thomas, who didn't speak Welsh





Steve

At least he wasn't born in Manchester like David Lloyd George....

[jimw1]

name='TartanTrousers']

4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc61Cjmmbkg"]YouTube- Wind That Shakes The Barley trailer[/ame]

[torinfan]

1. Please introduce yourself; Please state if you have any interest in Celtic culture or film making.



Torinfan, have read about Celtic myth and Wicca and that was a very long time ago!



2. Because of oral traditions and a lack of written text, many firsthand Celtic tales from the period of Celtic European settlement have been lost. Do you believe that this loss, propagated by Roman accounts, second hand Irish writings and more recent Druidic practises has fostered a culture which is all too willing to forget the Celts ancient origins, and stereotype Celtic behaviour and stories according to these second hand accounts?



Have no idea.



3. If so, do you believe this to be simply be the natural progression of storytelling as pertains to almost all ancient cultures, or an unfortunate set of circumstances?



Have no idea



4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?



Drawing Down the Moon?



5. The fantasy genre can be argued to be highly steeped in Celtic influences. However, do you believe this to be the case and if not, what counter claim do you have regarding his argument?



Have no idea



6. Do you believe that the Celts of ancient Europe are underutilized within the film industry? If so, why?



Have no idea



7. How deep do you believe Celtic influence to be embedded in the British film industry?



Have no idea

[will.15]

name='torinfan']1. Please introduce yourself; Please state if you have any interest in Celtic culture or film making.



Torinfan, have read about Celtic myth and Wicca and that was a very long time ago!



2. Because of oral traditions and a lack of written text, many firsthand Celtic tales from the period of Celtic European settlement have been lost. Do you believe that this loss, propagated by Roman accounts, second hand Irish writings and more recent Druidic practises has fostered a culture which is all too willing to forget the Celts ancient origins, and stereotype Celtic behaviour and stories according to these second hand accounts?



Have no idea.



3. If so, do you believe this to be simply be the natural progression of storytelling as pertains to almost all ancient cultures, or an unfortunate set of circumstances?



Have no idea



4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?



Drawing Down the Moon?



5. The fantasy genre can be argued to be highly steeped in Celtic influences. However, do you believe this to be the case and if not, what counter claim do you have regarding his argument?



Have no idea



6. Do you believe that the Celts of ancient Europe are underutilized within the film industry? If so, why?



Have no idea



7. How deep do you believe Celtic influence to be embedded in the British film industry?



Have no idea

[Maurice]

Wikipedia entry 'Tristan and Iseult':

examples of film adaptations begin with French silent TRISTAN ET YSEULT (1909).

[Moor Larkin]

name='TartanTrousers']1. Please introduce yourself; Please state if you have any interest in Celtic culture or film making.

I believed for most of my life that I was half-Irish, and read quite a few books on the old country's history. I lived for several years in the very Welsh part of Wales



2. Because of oral traditions and a lack of written text, many firsthand Celtic tales from the period of Celtic European settlement have been lost. Do you believe that this loss, propagated by Roman accounts, second hand Irish writings and more recent Druidic practises has fostered a culture which is all too willing to forget the Celts ancient origins, and stereotype Celtic behaviour and stories according to these second hand accounts?

I cannot remember anything before about 1962.



3. If so, do you believe this to be simply be the natural progression of storytelling as pertains to almost all ancient cultures, or an unfortunate set of circumstances?

I think, in the 1960's, English children were taught a lot about ancient cultures. I certainly remember being taught about Romans, Saxons, Gauls and Celts and even Picts and Vikings. However we were never told about the Irish Potato Famine. I was quite shocked when I found out about it myself one day.



4. When you think of Celtic film, does a particular film spring to mind? Why do you believe that film to be of Celtic origin?

I would not have thought there was any such thing as a Celtic film, although my favourite actor was Celtic I suppose... but I'm no film history expert either.



5. The fantasy genre can be argued to be highly steeped in Celtic influences. However, do you believe this to be the case and if not, what counter claim do you have regarding his argument?

Ancient legends certainly percolate many fantasy films but I would have thought English Arthurian legends, Danish (?) Beowulf legends and Tolkein probably have as much to do with it as anything else. The Japanese love ancient Fantasy most, don't they?



6. Do you believe that the Celts of ancient Europe are underutilized within the film industry? If so, why?

If any of them were alive, I daresay they'd be in Hollywood



7. How deep do you believe Celtic influence to be embedded in the British film industry?

Very little I would have thought. Ealing and all those other places were a bit too Home Counties.

Tóg bog é

[torinfan]

name='will.15']

Kinda like the "I don't know" routine in Nuns On the Run eh

[kline]

Some suggestions - tried responding privately. Don't want to be a knob on the forum. That failed.



1) Perhaps



2) Superficially yes - the old chestnut about the glorious Celtic twilight in the pre-Roman world. Check out Miranda Aldhouse Green's work, Audouze & Buchsenschutze or Cyril Fox, Pattern & Purpose. Have a look at Mortimer Wheeler's excavation report on Llanmelin hillfort, and the tribal reservation model he proposed for Caerwent - all very Indian Colonal, or Cowboy & Indian. Look for work by Ken Brasil, National Museum of Wales.



3. Love of the underdog, love of Irish/Scottish fantasy



4. Very superficially - Darby O Gill, Finians Rainbow, Braveheart, Brigadoon. Asterix vs Caesar. Hedd Wynn, On the Black Hill, Englishman who went up a hill and came down a mountain. Zulu, Gangs of New York, Can't think of any really good films that show good Celtic history from the pre-Roman era.



5. Don't disagree, look at Conan, or The Drawing of the Dark.



6. They are the Injuns to the Roman Cowboys. Only Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Bretons and the Basques have any thought of being descended from them. Hence the Romans are much more popular. Also they are perceived by popular culture to have lost to Caesar (rather than being assimilated/acculturated).



7. Only as a populist Irish/Scottish pseudo Celtic tradition. IMHO The Welsh is a bit more modern & complicated, mixed up in the language & politics.

[Maurice]

from Daphne du Maurier's 'Vanishing Cornwall' (1967):



The story of Arthur is curiously interwoven with that of another Cornish king, who may have been Arthur's contemporary or successor. Mark, or Marcus, was a king of Cornwall during the sixth century or earlier, and his fortress was at Castle Dor, once the stronghold of the chief Gorlois.



In the Arthurian legend Gorlois is murdered, and Igraine his wife is seduced by Uther Pendragon and becomes the mother of Arthur. Later, when Arthur is chief or king, his wife Gwinevere is herself seduced by Lancelot, a knight at Arthur's court and well-loved by the king.



This theme of seduction and betrayal belongs also to King Mark, who sends his nephew Tristan to bring him an Irish bride, the princess Iseult. The story of the love-potion, given to the pair by Iseult's hand-maiden Bronwyn as the ship carries the bride from Ireland to Cornwall, of their hopeless passion and the jealousy of King Mark, is known the world over, more famous even than Arthur's love for Gwinevere......



The wanderer, with the old legends vivid in his memory, can still stand upon the outer bank at Castle Dor, looking first westward to the sea where the Par estuary once cut into the coast, then eastward to the Fowey river, winding beneath St. Sampson's church at Golant to the wooded slopes below Lantyan farm.



It was at a chapel of St. Sampson, according to the French chronicler Beroul, that Queen Iseult heard Mass; it was beside the river that she trysted with her lover while the jealous king hovered in an orchard close at hand......



A stream rises beneath the fortress and descends through sloping fields to Woodget Pyll, and so to Fowey river. It is now only a trickle of water beside the lane or track, but less than a century ago the old people in the neighbourhood called the stream Deraine Lake, saying that in days gone by it formed a lake, with swans upon it, and that a King had made it for his Queen.



Deraine Lake.....Lac de la Reine? This is a strange tradition to come down through fifteen hundred years and be remembered still.....