Images of the UK today.......

[ShirlGirl]

What's Mandela got to do with "Images of the UK Today"?

[batman]

name='CaptainWaggett' date='24 July 2010 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1279977236' post='455740']

He's changed his ideas then

Mandela never 'approved' of any kind of violence, especially 'street violence' as it could cause the loss of innocent lives. He saw that violence was necessary but only as a 'last resort', but he felt huge guilt about the use of it ....



"Four forms of violence were possible. There is sabotage, there is guerrilla warfare, there is terrorism, and there is open revolution. We chose to adopt the first. Sabotage did not involve loss of life, and it offered the best hope for future race relations. Bitterness would be kept to a minimum and, if the policy bore fruit, democratic government could become a reality." - Nelson Mandela (1964)



.... Mandela saw that 'open revolution', which would more likely than not include 'street violence', would not succeed and that the lasting legacy of such action would be an increase of hatred against the general population. By reluctantly adopting a strategy of 'sabotage', he felt that the 'responsibilty' would be taken on board by those committing such acts and not by the general black population.



More recently Mandela displayed his 'disapproval' of violence by speaking out against plans to have details of ANC 'atrocities' removed from the official records of The Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He felt that these 'shameful incidents' should not be hidden.

[CaptainWaggett]

Interestingly,it's often forgotten now that Mandela's stance on violence meant that Amnesty International didn't regard him as a Prisoner of Concience. Still, as Shirl says, it's not really relevant to Britain today (though the rather splendid statue is here) so I'll say no more.

[Dame Starry]

name='ShirlGirl' date='24 July 2010 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1279978097' post='455747']

What's Mandela got to do with "Images of the UK Today"?

You'd have to ask the ex-Mayor, Ken Livingstone, the answer to that.

[batman]

name='CaptainWaggett' date='24 July 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1279979597' post='455755']

... it's not really relevant to Britain today ...

I would think that Mandela's actions and the South African situation at that time are relevant to all countries and all times.

[ShirlGirl]

name='CaptainWaggett' date='24 July 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1279979597' post='455755']

Interestingly,it's often forgotten now that Mandela's stance on violence meant that Amnesty International didn't regard him as a Prisoner of Conscience. Still, as Shirl says, it's not really relevant to Britain today (though the rather splendid statue is here) so I'll say no more.

I didn't actually say that, Waggers, I was just asking the question - not being aware of the statue in Trafalgar Square, I was baffled as to why Mark O would bring him into this topic.



Dame Starry sent me in the right direction (thanks DS):

"There can be no better place than our greatest square to place a statue of Nelson Mandela so that every generation can remind the next of the fight against racism."

(I hope it works!)

Put in that light, you could say that it is relevant to "Images of the UK Today".

[Timmy_Lea]

name='Mark O' date='24 July 2010 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1279972376' post='455703']

I'm sure this hero of our time wouldn't approve of street riots, liberty for all is achievable without the need for violence......

Tell that to the thugs in uniforms.

[Steve Crook]

name='ShirlGirl' date='24 July 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1279982340' post='455771']

Dame Starry sent me in the right direction (thanks DS):

"There can be no better place than our greatest square to place a statue of Nelson Mandela so that every generation can remind the next of the fight against racism."

(I hope it works!)

Put in that light, you could say that it is relevant to "Images of the UK Today".

It's also relevant because it was in the nearby Trafalgar Square where the South African High Commission was and there was a vigil and protest outside there for many years protesting against Apartheid.



Donald Woods and others campaigned to get the statue of Mandela erected in Trafalgar Square but the local authority claimed that there wasn't enough room - so they put it in Parliament Square.



One of Mandela's first trips abroad on his release was to Britain, to thank the anti-apartheid campaigners for their work



Steve

[ShirlGirl]

Thanks for that info, Steve.

[will.15]

Here is a picture from across the pond.

[Timmy_Lea]

[Timmy_Lea]

[Mark O]

name='ShirlGirl' date='24 July 2010 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1279978097' post='455747']

What's Mandela got to do with "Images of the UK Today"?

Because it is an 'image' in the UK today, one I, and I'm sure many others are very proud of, he came over for the unveiling, Steve has supplied the rest of the info.



Timmy Lea my friend, you're certainly at liberty to refer to the Police as thugs if you so wish, I know which group I'd rather call thugs, please bare in mind protesters protest of their own free will, and there's a handful who will always turn a peaceful protest into a bloody war, when it comes to compassion and sympathy, mine is directed towards a young policeman who will never see his children attain adulthood or see any potential grandchildren as he was blinded this month, yet the monster who blinded him is treated as a hero by many, it bewilders me how some people have no sense of priorities.

[Timmy_Lea]

name='Mark O' date='24 July 2010 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1279999276' post='455841']

Because it is an 'image' in the UK today, one I, and I'm sure many others are very proud of, he came over for the unveiling, Steve has supplied the rest of the info.



Timmy Lea my friend, you're certainly at liberty to refer to the Police as thugs if you so wish, I know which group I'd rather call thugs, please bare in mind protesters protest of their own free will, and there's a handful who will always turn a peaceful protest into a bloody war, when it comes to compassion and sympathy, mine is directed towards a young policeman who will never see his children attain adulthood or see any potential grandchildren as he was blinded this month, yet the monster who blinded him is treated as a hero by many, it bewilders me how some people have no sense of priorities.

All I will say in response is. . .Ian Tomlinson & Jean Charles de Menezes. The police today are above the law. Thugs unaccountable for their actions. Investigations whitewashed!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DJNzkIRg_E

[Timmy_Lea]

[Steve Crook]

name='Timmy_Lea' date='24 July 2010 - 11:11 PM' timestamp='1280009499' post='455893']

An everyday sight in Britain today.

(I think Timmy's losing his grip on reality )



Steve

[Mark O]

name='Timmy_Lea' date='24 July 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1280000572' post='455848']

All I will say in response is. . .Ian Tomlinson & Jean Charles de Menezes. The police today are above the law. Thugs unaccountable for their actions. Investigations whitewashed!

Yes, their deaths were tragic, but a mistake, can you not find it in you to forgive a genuine mistake?



The blinding and death of Northumbrian policemen was deliberate, by a hardened criminal, 9/11, Madrid, and 7/7 were deliberate also, I sometimes wonder what sort of regime some people would like to see in place in Great Britain, like the protesters pictured, what do they want?...... a policeless society?........after all they're the ones whom we turn to when we've been the victim of crime.

[Marky B]

name='Mark O' date='25 July 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1280068935' post='456069']

Yes, their deaths were tragic, but a mistake, can you not find it in you to forgive a genuine mistake?



The blinding and death of Northumbrian policemen was deliberate, by a hardened criminal, 9/11, Madrid, and 7/7 were deliberate also, I sometimes wonder what sort of regime some people would like to see in place in Great Britain, like the protesters pictured, what do they want?...... a policeless society?........after all they're the ones whom we turn to when we've been the victim of crime.

I agree with everything you say,Mark,but the death of Ian Tomlinson should be held to account.

As for Jean Charles de Menezes,the police are in a no win situation. They chased a man who did

not stop on command. What if he had been a terrorist and they didn't shoot him,giving him the

free hand of blowing up a train killing more people. They would have been criticised for not taking action,but as

they did,they are still criticised. They were in a situation in a city still smarting from the bombs going off

on July 7 and they had to decide at that point on what course of action to take. It is the easiest job in the

world to be a critic,but a harder job is to be a doer. Their decision to shoot was tragically wrong IN HINDSIGHT,

but to be in their position at that moment I wouldn't have for a King's ransom.

The police are flawed - no institution in the world is - but give me our boys and girls in blue any day to thugs

whose credo is anrachy.

Mark

[Timmy_Lea]

name='Mark O' date='25 July 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1280068935' post='456069']

Yes, their deaths were tragic, but a mistake, can you not find it in you to forgive a genuine mistake?



The blinding and death of Northumbrian policemen was deliberate, by a hardened criminal, 9/11, Madrid, and 7/7 were deliberate also, I sometimes wonder what sort of regime some people would like to see in place in Great Britain, like the protesters pictured, what do they want?...... a policeless society?........after all they're the ones whom we turn to when we've been the victim of crime.

It's not just the 'mistake' as you put it. It's the cover up, it's the lies, it's the lack of accountability.

I do not want a policeless society, I just want the police to be held to account when they murder innocent people like Ian Tomlinson & Jean Charles de Menezes. But they literally get away with murder! You seriously expect me to forgive them for what they did?!? If they showed an ounce of remorse or held a proper investigation not a whitewash then maybe. . .maybe!



Anyway, back to the topic. . .

[Mark O]

name='Marky B' date='25 July 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1280072270' post='456101']

but give me our boys and girls in blue any day to thugs

whose credo is anrachy.

Mark

Absolutely Marky, what gets me is that most of these anarchists come from middle-class and above backgrounds, they wouldn't have a clue about life on a sink estate or what it means to go without, the police in the above pics probably asked them to move back, which they didn't, so what do they expect, in my younger day if a police officer told you to do something you did it no questions asked, if these anarchists hate society so much they're quite at liberty to pack their bags and leave it.



Right then, as Timmy Lea back to the topic, I love watching these mime artists, some of them are very athletic with their bending and twisting......