homeguard

Let's hope it stays that way!!!!!!

Hackett

I think you are in a minority with that wish. If this country was strong enough to have a referendum on the subject of Capital punishment it would be voted back in without a doubt. Unfortunately due to the nanny goverment we have in at the moment bringing in backdoor legislation we are unable to ballot this debate as it now contravenes our alliance with the EEC. Which of course is why they did it. We may be told we have a voice but they have serreptitiously removed our teeth. I hope you have time to read this before king clique removes it.

CaptainWaggett

Why on earth do we need a ballot on capital punishment? We elect a parliament to make these decisions for us and the last time they voted on the matter (under John Major), it's restoration was rejected by 403 votes to 159. It's possible that MPs are out of tune with their constituents on this matter but they are on lots of issues (how much it costs to furnish a house!) which we are unlikely to have a referendum on.

People really want to live in a society where mentally handicapped boys can be hanged for crimes they didn't commit?

Harleybloke

Many say that given a referendum, it would be a yes to capital punishment. I'm not sure it would. Of course Fred West and Peter Sutcliffe make a easy case to say yes but there have been so many miscarriages of justice over the years surely no one would take the risk again.

And anyway, didn't I read somewhere of a policeman, Claude Payne(?), who was also present on the roof. His notes made no mention of Craig uttering the words. He wasn't called as a witness. He went public on TV a few years ago.

No one ever seems to mention that..........................

.....You couldn't hear it, if they were shooting at me with howitzers!

Hackett

Old hat argument but great analogy capital punishment and furnishing a house. You really need somebody to make up your mind. Bentley died over 50 years ago. We live in a society now that wants to spend millions, no billions on looking after murderers for 10 or 11 years at the expence of the old, ill and handicapped. I think I will agree with an expert when it comes to what we should do with murderers, i.e Fred West.

CaptainWaggett

Would you have been happy for the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four or Stefan Kiszko to be hanged - all tried rather more recently than Derek Bentley? Does anyone really think there are no innocent people currently in jail for murder?

I have already made up my mind about capital punishment - that's why I vote for a party that is committed to not restoring it. I don't expect to have to do MPs jobs for them by voting for every single issue.

I take it you've seen Yield to the Night, a film about the hanging of someone who actually was guilty. Not the British legal system's finest hour.

Steve Crook

Au contraire, there's lots of doubt that the people of Britain would vote for it to be brought back.

The Bentley case wasn't the only time when a mistake was made.
Would you still be in favour of it if, when a mistake was made, a member of your family was killed to "make up for it"? Silly I know, but it's equally silly to say that capital punishment would be voted back "without a doubt"

Steve

Dame Starry

With the advancement of forensic science, proving guilt in the 21st Century should be easier than it ever was and with less ‘personal’ opinions required by pathologists – a common cause of miscarriages of justice in the past because jurors believed them to be an expert opinion.

IMHO, sadly, government interference in the justice system has resulted in a less efficient and more corrupt machine from top to bottom – not least the ridiculous idea of having, amongst others, serving police officers on juries.

I know of a man who is in prison serving time for murder – without a body or any DNA evidence whatsoever.
Let me state, firstly, that he was never a 'squeaky-clean' member of society - but that in no way automatically makes him a murderer!
After successfully suing the police for harassment and receiving compensation he was, subsequently, charged with the murder of his wife who had been missing for several years.
At his trial, there was a serving police officer from a neighbouring force on the jury who was elected as the Foreman. He was only asked by the Judge if he knew the defendant or the investigating team, to which he only had to answer that he didn’t; I will leave your imaginations to appreciate the possible implications of that.
The defendant was found guilty with a unanimous verdict; an appeal is currently being prepared.

So, whilst I, personally, would dearly LOVE to have the death penalty reinstated, Steve is quite right – while innocent people are languishing in prison, the public will never vote to bring back the death penalty; and quite rightly so.

DS x.

Steve Crook

Just check the Rachel Nickell murder case. The police had Colin Stagg all lined up as the guilty party and would have had him hung if such an option was available.

They did everything possible to get him convicted, including setting up a "honey trap" to get him to confess.

Luckily, in this case, the police evidence wasn't believed and her remained free although the police continued to persecute him.

16 years after the murder the police finally seemed to agree with everyone else, that it wasn't Stagg that did it. Two years after that they finally charged someone else with the murder

NO conviction is 100% safe

Steve

Hackett

You have now gone from 50 years to 30 years ago still a weak argument. For the Birmingham six or Guildford four how about the released murderers who have gone on to kill again. We NEVER executed every murderer in this country when we had capital punishment. I'v been over this ground before on this site but king clique is anti capital punishment so he removed it. As for your politics one vote cures you of all further decisions has got us a nanny state. A subject as strong as capital punishment should be decided by all of us not just 600 MP's. I suspect that people who believe that only politicians should take the vote is because a referendum would bring it back. As for "YIELD TO THE NIGHT" that was based on Ruth Ellis. She shot her boyfriend and killed him. she also shot a woman in the hand at the same time, people don't mention that much as it spoils the story. Ellis accepted what she did and her punishment. Diana Dors was acting. Is the British legal system's finest hour any worst punishment than what a gang of thugs in Newcastle handed out to a handicapped person last year. Stripping him naked and beating him to death in the street. No shortage of evidence with this one as they filmed it on thier phones.
The closest to the real thing filmed execution scene is in "10 RILLINGTON PLACE" 1971 as Albert Pierrpoint was the technical advisor. Harrowing it maybe but quick and no more than fair justice for our North East friends I would say. Please don't bring up the fact that Timothy Evans was pardoned for the murder of his wife which Christie admitted too. Evans was hung for the murder of his daughter he has never been pardoned for that. Christie even admitted to being a necrophile but would not admit to the murder of baby Geraldine Evans.

Hackett

So you would question the phone evidence? From 1900 to 1964 we executed 762 people none at all in 1956 not all for murder some for treason, spying and American soilders for rape. 762 people over 64 years, 29 in the last 8 years, out of 50 odd million people at any one time. For God sake I'm saying take tham all out and string them up but for some crimes there is just no other punishment. We could argue this all day and for every Evans you bring up I could trump it with a Shipman, West or Brady. Two of who appear to agree with me.

Steve Crook

I am rarely able to follow what you're on about in this sort of rant, but what "phone evidence"?

Did you ever answer my suggestion that you or a member of your family should be killed for every mistake made? Would you still be in favour of it then?

Steve

batman

The death of an innocent person can never be 'trumped' by anything ..... the death sentence is not a game, it is a grotesque ritual and should be never be allowed to re-surface in this country.

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

CaptainWaggett

So miscarriages of justice are OK because there are murderers whose guilt is 100% definite? I may be misinterpreting what you're saying here but I can't see what else you can be getting at. Supposedly a third of murderers commit suicide - I have no idea why that should be an argument in favour of the death penalty. Can you honestly lay your hand on your heart and say that you believe every single convicted murderer in jail at the moment (or every convict on death row in the US) is guilty?

Anyone who thinks that the actual process of capital punishment can ever have a place in a decent or humane society should see Dancer in the Dark or the The State Within. It's not all about Timothy Spall dispatching the victim in 7 seconds.

Dame Starry

BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT is the phrase used when it comes to finding people guilty of a crime in this country. If there IS reasonable doubt, then the jury should not convict. Unfortunately, juries consist of ordinary people plucked from the electoral register, many of whom have no idea how courts and justice works. They put far too much faith in the police and the CPS which is a big mistake now.

With Shipman, West and Brady, there never was any doubt whatsoever of their guilt and all could, in theory, have been hanged.

However, as Steve has pointed out, Colin Stagg was an innocent man who was hounded and harassed by the police for years; they did everything they could to get him – and he’s not the only one this has happened to.

In order to be fair, our justice system is supposed to ‘err on the side of caution’ in order to protect the innocent but, unfortunately, often fails which is precisely the reason why the death penalty cannot be reinstated.

I believe it was Sir William Blackstone who one said something like:
It’s better to let ten guilty men go free than to imprison one innocent man.

DS x.