Autographs

[CaptainWaggett]

I'm not entirely convinced of the point of autographs - the few I have, I prefer not to look into too deeply. Better to just pretend to myself they're genuine. I'm not sure how you could actually authenticate a signature by say Dennis Price or Eric Portman anyway.

But I'm sure there are plenty of collectors on these boards - you might find this article interesting.
How do you spot a fake autograph?
WHO, WHAT, WHY?
The Magazine answers...


Two men have been found guilty of conning sports fans into paying for faked autographs. But how can you tell if a signature is genuine or not?

Jonny Wilkinson, David Beckham, Stephen Gerrard, Sir Alex Ferguson - the names of those signatures forged and sold by Faisal Madani and Graeme Walker is an A-list of British sports stars. The pair were found guilty after trading standards officers raided Walker's Sporting Icons shop in Chester. Officers bought or seized 197 items that the prosecution claimed were forgeries.

Like many autographs sold, theirs came with certificates of authentication (albeit not from a reputable authorising body). So how can autograph hunters prepared to spend on their hobby detect real from fake?

Fake autographs are often mechanically reproduced. Run your thumb over the signature on a photo, suggests Antiques Roadshow expert Clive Farahar. If the writing feels flat against the surface, it could be a facsimile. You need to feel the texture of the ink on top of the photograph to know it has been added afterwards.

DEALER CREDENTIALS TO LOOK FOR
Universal Autograph Collectors' Club registered dealer programme
Autograph Fair Trade Assoc Ltd

Even then the signature itself could still be a sham. Autographs can be printed on top of photos, so it's important to feel the outline with your thumb. It can be almost impossible to detect fake signatures on fabric like caps and sports shirts by touch because the fabric soaks up the ink without leaving a raised layer. But there are visible clues in the ink.

Garry King, an expert in signed memorabilia who gave evidence in the Madani-Walker trial, believes he could train anyone to spot the most obvious signs of a fake in 10 minutes. When a signature is rubber stamped on an item, all the ink is applied at the same time and squeezed out to the edges of the rubber. It leaves a "kind of tramline". So when magnified, "you can spot more ink on the edges of the lines than in the middle".


With signatures printed by machine, the giveaway is that all the ink is applied in the same moment, resulting in a smooth effect. But if a name is signed by hand, with a pen, the nib will cut through wet ink, creating "bridges" and "tunnels" visible under an eye glass.

Autographs can also be duplicated with an autopen where a machine uses a pen to replicate handwriting. A plastic or metal "matrix" of the signature is made from the template of an autograph. This matrix is loaded into the machine and the mechanical arm precisely traces the writing. Royalty depend on autopen machines to get through their Christmas card lists.

But under scrutiny, even the autopen can be detected, says Mr King.

"When you write your own name, you put your pen on the paper and start writing in one continuous movement. The pen is normally moving before you start writing. But the autopen comes down with a dot and comes off abruptly with another dot, which you can see when magnified."

Perhaps the hardest signatures to verify are those that have been faked freehand. In the days before autopen, Walt Disney and many other Hollywood glitterati had their secretaries sign photos for them, says Mr Farahar.

WHAT TO LOOK FOR
The angle of the signature
Pressure and speed of writing
Bridges and tunnels in ink
Rubber stamp 'tramlines'
Texture of the ink
Autopen dots at start and finish

"Certainly with JFK you could tell if it was by secretary one, secretary two or secretary three."

Human error - the fact real handwriting varies over time and in different circumstances - can make real and fake signatures extremely hard to validate or dismiss. Autographs by the Beatles are notoriously hard to authenticate.

"You can't recognise a lot of signatures done at stage doors. It looks like John Lennon but it could be anybody. If you walked out of a theatre as you signed your name, it would look dodgy," says Mr Farahar.

There are more obvious clues to fakery than scrutinising the ink so closely.

"If you got 10 people in your office to sign a card, the chances are you'll get 10 signatures of all sizes all over place - unevenly spaced, at an angle, you may even get one upside down," says Mr King.

"Put a real football shirt signed by a team against a fake one and you can see it straight away. With 10 autographs written by one person, the signatures will often be the same size, they'll be evenly spaced and the same way up."


WHO, WHAT, WHY?
A new feature to the BBC News Magazine - aiming to answer some of the questions behind the headlines

Abundance is also an insight, says Mr King: "A forger can knock out 20, 30, 40 David Beckham autographs a week. A genuine dealer probably won't have as much as one a month for sale."

That's because like many Premiership footballers, Beckham won't sign more than one thing at a time because of fears it will be sold on. In addition, many will only dedicate a signature to an individual, knowing that it is then only of use to the named person.

Experience is key, says Mr Farahar. "To know what a signature should look like, you need to have seen one that was collected, probably personally. Or you have to rely on someone else's experience and professional reputation to tell you that something is OK."

[Fellwanderer]

I'd hazard a guess that 90 per cent of those offered on eBay are forgeries.

Simply viewing them onscreen, I reckon I can identify virtually every one of Jenny's that is a forgery - and it's most of them!

[CaptainWaggett]

It's an odd way to make a living though - forging Jenny Agutter's autograph. I have to say I can almost admire the person who has the patience to build up a reputation starting with say second division footballers and working his way up over the years to Garbos and Salingers.

[Steve Crook]

As I say in the article about P&P people's signatures:

There is a very large market dealing in signatures from movie stars, sports stars, even politicians. Because of this, there are a lot of signatures offered that aren't very genuine. Many dealers offer a "Certificate of Authenticity". These are generally valueless. If you trust the dealer why should you need a certificate? If you don't trust the dealer, why should you trust a certificate they send?

Note that stars often signed things either with a stamp or an autopen or similar machine. These were signed en-masse in the publicity offices and then passed out on appropriate occasions.

There is an extract about autopens from the FAQ for the newsgroup alt.collecting.autograph

Steve

[batman]

A dealer in Norwich was convicted of fraud a while ago for selling fake autographed photos of Steve McQueen. He was rumbled when a diligent buyer noticed that the photos were laser printed, something which McQueen couldn't have signed because that particular type of paper wasn't produced till after McQueen's death. Oops!

[Fellwanderer]

Originally Posted by batman A dealer in Norwich was convicted of fraud a while ago for selling fake autographed photos of Steve McQueen. He was rumbled when a diligent buyer noticed that the photos were laser printed, something which McQueen couldn't have signed because that particular type of paper wasn't produced till after McQueen's death. Oops!

You'd think they'd have a bit more sense!

A couple of weeks ago there were at least two identical autographed photos of Jenny in AAWIL with the signature in exactly the same spot.

The silly thing is, one can get an autographed photo directly from Jenny for a donation to one of the charities she supports - and the donation she suggests is less than one would pay on eBay!

I also suspect that a lot of the money dealers make is by unsigned photos that they've simply ripped off with a screengrab or the web itself - hence the swirls on Jenny's own gallery photos to prevent that. Of course, they up their margins by clever "P&P" charges.

[Frank63]

Some folk will do owt rather than work for a living

[Dame Starry]

I, personally, cannot understand why anybody would wish to have an autograph unless it had been done for them personally and they had seen it signed in front of them. That is the only way that you can ever be 100% sure that it is genuine. Plus it's invariably free that way!
In the 60's, the Beatles' whole entourage used to do them for the whole group. I've often wondered how many people sit and worship their John Lennon autograph every day - which was, in fact, signed by one of the roadies!

Caveat emptor.

DS x.

[CaptainWaggett]

Aren't there meant to be different price scales for Beatles aurographs - groupie - roadie - session musician - Brian Epstein - real Beatle?

I recently paid a fair amount at a charity auction for a signed action figure of a Very Famous Person. However I just have to trust that the Very Famous Person actually signed it himself and console myself that if it was his PA did it (there are no similar item on eBay but I don't know whether that's a good or bad sign) , the money went to a good cause anyway. But if you buy a signed photo at a memorabilia fair of some long dead actor, it's probably best to not look to deeply into the matter. Just enjoy it for what it is - a piece of paper with a photo on it.

[batman]

It is such a difficult area, as The Dame says you'll never really be sure of authenticity unless you see it signed yourself. Here's a couple of 'authentic' Brando ones for sale on e-bay.

[Dame Starry]

As I would have no idea whether a 'dead' actor had actually signed an autograph before he died, it wouldn't enter my head to even consider buying it.
It's one of the biggest 'rackets' going and while people are daft enough to fund it, it'll continue to grow. More fool them.

DS x.

[Windthrop]

I do a certain amount of dealing in second-hand books and avoid signed copies because it is so easy to get stung. Have only asked someone for an autograph once (am not especially star struck) when I spotted Joseph Cotten in a Cambridge bookstore in the late 70s.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by CaptainWaggett Aren't there meant to be different price scales for Beatles aurographs - groupie - roadie - session musician - Brian Epstein - real Beatle? I recently paid a fair amount at a charity auction for a signed action figure of a Very Famous Person. However I just have to trust that the Very Famous Person actually signed it himself and console myself that if it was his PA did it (there are no similar item on eBay but I don't know whether that's a good or bad sign) , the money went to a good cause anyway. But if you buy a signed photo at a memorabilia fair of some long dead actor, it's probably best to not look to deeply into the matter. Just enjoy it for what it is - a piece of paper with a photo on it.

A lot of people on eBay don't even bother with the photo. They just sell the signature on a page from an old style autograph book.

Or they put a photo and the signature as two separate items on a single mount or frame.

Steve

[Windthrop]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook A lot of people on eBay don't even bother with the photo. They just sell the signature on a page from an old style autograph book. Or they put a photo and the signature as two separate items on a single mount or frame. Steve

or even worse devalue a book by sticking a cut-out autograph in a book !

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Windthrop or even worse devalue a book by sticking a cut-out autograph in a book !

Some book dealers don't like to see anything stuck in or written in a book.

I don't like stuck in autographs or photos, but I don't mind "signed in person" autographs, especially when they're dedicated to me and dated

I also don't mind things like the name of the original owner of a second hand book, especially when that's dated and if it's got a greeting to show it was given as a present. It gives the book a nice feeling of the history of it and something about previous owners.

That reminds me, I must get my book collection valued for the insurance. A lot of them were only printed in one edition so they're de facto first editions. Quite a few are also quite rare and some are also signed by appropriate people.

Steve