Yorkshire ripper launches freedom bid! - Page 2 - Britmovie - British Film Forum

Britmovie - British Film Forum Britmovie - British Film Forum Britmovie - British Film Forum
Home Page Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

 »» Yorkshire ripper launches freedom bid!
 »   Britmovie - British Film Forum » Back Row » Off-Topic Discussion

Notices
Welcome to the Britmovie forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, Join our community today!!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Off-Topic Discussion For infrequent and stimulating chat about everyday topics from the weather to world news, sport and politics.


Reply
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 34 >
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 14-05-2008, 08:51 PM
  post #16
billy bentley has no status.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York City
Posts: 673
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
To me it seems impossible that Sutcliffe can prove he is no longer a danger, etc etc. I think the media know stories like these "push buttons" and upset people. That' why they like them - they sell. Sutcliffe is a person that is not worthy of liberty. But let's also not forget that when all the Yorkshire Rippers's victims were "prostitutes" there was much less public outcry about catching him.

billy bentley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2008, 08:57 PM
  post #17
penfold is at Pordenone
Moderator
 
penfold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bristol
Posts: 4,231
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by billy bentley View Post
To me it seems impossible that Sutcliffe can prove he is no longer a danger, etc etc. I think the media know stories like these "push buttons" and upset people. That' why they like them - they sell. Sutcliffe is a person that is not worthy of liberty. But let's also not forget that when all the Yorkshire Rippers's victims were "prostitutes" there was much less public outcry about catching him.
Times have changed since then....none of the media was saying 'They were only prostitutes' while the Ipswich killer was on the rampage last year...they were women, daughters of families...
But that was the media...IIRC the public were very keen to have The Ripper caught...
Bit of a Bay Window, what??
penfold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2008, 09:10 PM
  post #18
billy bentley has no status.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York City
Posts: 673
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
Point taken Penfold. Living in NYC I know practically nothing about the Ipswich killer or his victims. But travelling in England at that time and often visiting Leeds, I was very aware that the murders were treated differently once a young lady who was most definitely not a prostitute was murdered. 'm glad to hear that is no longet the case. Still I do think the media exploit the outrage that exists.
billy bentley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2008, 09:16 PM
  post #19
penfold is at Pordenone
Moderator
 
penfold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bristol
Posts: 4,231
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by billy bentley View Post
. Still I do think the media exploit the outrage that exists.
Oh Good Lord yes....they have to tune into the outrage they themselves have stirred up to sell their rags....
Bit of a Bay Window, what??
penfold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2008, 10:23 PM
  post #20
Shadwell is worshipping his God...
Senior Member
 
Shadwell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 208
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by batman View Post
Speaking as one who works in the arena of forensic psychiatry, I think it is hugely unlikely that he will be released based on the claims of that solicitor,which are outlined in Joe's post. The Ministry of Justice does not take these decisions lightly (contrary to what is often reported). The solicitor's claim about no tariff being set is true, but this is standard practice for people detained under the Mental Health Act. Such a patient is entitled by law to a review hearing (MHRT) yearly, the solicitor will have to present a case to the review panel (which consists of a psychiatrist, a lawyer and a lay person). Also present will be all the people on the patient's care team (doctors, nurses, social workers etc) who will also present evidence. It is almost like a courtroom setting. Sutcliffe (via his solicitor) will have to convince his care team and the panel that he is safe to be moved from high security to a medium secure setting (like the one where I work) and then on to a low secure unit before any consideration would be given to trial leave, let alone discharge. This process could take several years. If she bypasses that process and does go to the European Court a similar process will have to be started and the same individuals are likely to be involved. In my opinion, and of course I could be wrong, Sutcliffe is unlikely to be free for many years, if at all. The only way I can see that happening is for everyone involved in his case to believe his illness has improved to such an extent he is no longer a danger to the public. I think that is unlikely.

Re lethal injection .... regardless of what he has done, Sutcliffe is a man suffering from a severe and chronic mental illness (schizophrenia) which unfortunately manifested itself with delusions and extreme violence. We cannot kill him simply for being unwell because a) there is no justification for that and b) it would set a precedent and all sufferers from serious mental illness would be at risk of this kind of retribution.

I have no desire to see him free and I have immense empathy for the families of his victims, but Sutcliffe is extremely unwell and should be treated as the sufferer of a severe debilitating illness and nothing more.


Damn fine reply Bats. I also work in the area of NHS forensic psychiatry. I couldn't have put it better myself. Sutcliffe has been in Broadmoor for many years. If he was faking a mental illness as the programme last night on Channel five possibly suggested as a possibility, he would have been found out by now. To fake a mental illness like paranoid schizoprenia would be a pure acting job. Not even Robert de Nero could pull it off. Sutcliffe would have to be in character from the moment he opened his eyes in the morning until he goes to sleep. He would also need to know his way around the DSM 4. Let his guard down for even just a moment and he would be found out. Patients in those settings and also in acute psychiatric wards are watched and observed regularly. It was quite telling that Sutcliffe's brother thought of him as mentally ill and he as a member of his family should know. I would have thought it highly unlikely that such a high profile patient like Peter Sutcliffe would ever be let out.
Time to keep your appointment with the Wicker Man...
Shadwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2008, 11:25 PM
  post #21
rskershaw has no status.
Senior Member
 
rskershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bolton
Posts: 311
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
Sutcliffe is surely mentally ill and I'm surprised C5 could even hint that he was faking it. Though this is no consolation to his victims' families and friends.

I remember reading Ron Kray's "My Story", in which he talked about Sutcliffe, whom he encountered occasionally at Broadmoor. Kray said he had sympathy for the man as he was very mentally disturbed (this coming from Ron Kray!) but he could not condone what he had done.
And what's all this about me having me leg off?
rskershaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 06:16 AM
  post #22
samkydd has no status.
Senior Member
 
samkydd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stackton Tressle
Posts: 2,465
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by batman View Post
Speaking as one who works in the arena of forensic psychiatry, I think it is hugely unlikely that he will be released based on the claims of that solicitor,which are outlined in Joe's post. The Ministry of Justice does not take these decisions lightly (contrary to what is often reported). The solicitor's claim about no tariff being set is true, but this is standard practice for people detained under the Mental Health Act. Such a patient is entitled by law to a review hearing (MHRT) yearly, the solicitor will have to present a case to the review panel (which consists of a psychiatrist, a lawyer and a lay person). Also present will be all the people on the patient's care team (doctors, nurses, social workers etc) who will also present evidence. It is almost like a courtroom setting. Sutcliffe (via his solicitor) will have to convince his care team and the panel that he is safe to be moved from high security to a medium secure setting (like the one where I work) and then on to a low secure unit before any consideration would be given to trial leave, let alone discharge. This process could take several years. If she bypasses that process and does go to the European Court a similar process will have to be started and the same individuals are likely to be involved. In my opinion, and of course I could be wrong, Sutcliffe is unlikely to be free for many years, if at all. The only way I can see that happening is for everyone involved in his case to believe his illness has improved to such an extent he is no longer a danger to the public. I think that is unlikely.

Re lethal injection .... regardless of what he has done, Sutcliffe is a man suffering from a severe and chronic mental illness (schizophrenia) which unfortunately manifested itself with delusions and extreme violence. We cannot kill him simply for being unwell because a) there is no justification for that and b) it would set a precedent and all sufferers from serious mental illness would be at risk of this kind of retribution.

I have no desire to see him free and I have immense empathy for the families of his victims, but Sutcliffe is extremely unwell and should be treated as the sufferer of a severe debilitating illness and nothing more.
That's easy for you to say but think of the poor bloke whose number plates he nicked!

I think the public's perception of criminals pleading mental illness as an excuse for wicked crimes is that it's a cop out so that they don't have to face up to their responsibilities. When you think about it these types have to be mentally unbalanced to carry out these crimes in the first place, but this is not necessarily true in all cases.

Some personality disorders send the individuals concerned into denial as soon as they get found out, and mental illness is then brought to the fore as a defence. However, if they didn't get caught they'd be quite happy carrying out normal lives, with the occassional diversion into some evil practice to add a bit of spice to an otherwise ordinary bland existence. Some people are happy collecting stamps or building model railways in their spare time, others have to abduct people and subject them to all sorts of evil before killing them! If potentially dangerous people could be identified before they committed these sorts of crimes then they could be treated I suppose, but how could people be screened effectively?

Some notorious murderers managed to stay off the radar even though they had committed serious crimes in the past, Fred West for example and Robert Black. Black as a older teenager abducted a girl of about ten years old and subjected her to sexual abuse, and the Scottish Sheriff put it down to teenage sexual curiosity or some such cobblers and he got off lightly! Later in life he murdered many school girls up and down the UK, and the police still have open files on other unsolved cases and are convinced that they were all murdered by Black, but he won't confess despite being banged up for life!

To a lesser extent I've come across a few examples of Jeffrey Archer syndrome where people live in a world of fantasy and bullshit, lying so much that they actually believe what they're saying, even to the extent of corrupting their memories with made-up events! When the truth comes out they will not accept it and continue to decieve, even when they know that the other person knows that they're full of crap!
"...the chairman of Littlewoods stores made a Keynote speech!"
Last edited by samkydd; 15-05-2008 at 06:51 AM.
samkydd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 08:08 AM
  post #23
Steve Crook is cheeky
Moderator
 
Steve Crook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,030
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (1)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by samkydd View Post
If potentially dangerous people could be identified before they committed these sorts of crimes then they could be treated I suppose, but how could people be screened effectively?
People should read more science fiction. This has been covered in at least one SF story I've read. One of them was by one of the masters of the genre like Robert A. Heinlein or Philip K. Dick, but it was years ago when I read it and I don't remember the title

Steve
Steve Crook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 08:11 AM
  post #24
batman is the man!
Chief Member OBME
 
batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Norwich
Gender: Male
Posts: 19,552
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (13)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Crook View Post
People should read more science fiction. This has been covered in at least one SF story I've read. One of them was by one of the masters of the genre like Robert A. Heinlein or Philip K. Dick, but it was years ago when I read it and I don't remember the title

Steve
Wasn't that the central premise of Minority Report, Philip K Dick's story which was filmed by Spieberg.
I'm the cutest bottom judge!
batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 08:11 AM
  post #25
penfold is at Pordenone
Moderator
 
penfold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bristol
Posts: 4,231
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Crook View Post
People should read more science fiction. This has been covered in at least one SF story I've read. One of them was by one of the masters of the genre like Robert A. Heinlein or Philip K. Dick, but it was years ago when I read it and I don't remember the title

Steve
Are you thinking of Minority Report?
Bit of a Bay Window, what??
penfold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 08:12 AM
  post #26
batman is the man!
Chief Member OBME
 
batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Norwich
Gender: Male
Posts: 19,552
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (13)
Default
Great minds and all that .....
I'm the cutest bottom judge!
batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 08:44 AM
  post #27
Steve Crook is cheeky
Moderator
 
Steve Crook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,030
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (1)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by batman View Post
Wasn't that the central premise of Minority Report, Philip K Dick's story which was filmed by Spieberg.
That could be one of them. As I said, it's been covered in quite a few stories.

Another one, which I think must have been by Heinlein, had a super computer ruling the world. It was probably called Multivac, he liked to call his computers things ending in "vac". This computer would analyse everybody and was able to predict crimes so that people could be arrested before they committed the crimes.

One person was identified as being about to commit a murder so the police went to arrest him and through various circumstances the man wasn't arrested and was driven to further and further extremes of behaviour. He finally broke into the place where Multivac was stored and just before he pulled the plug, Multivac said "Thank you". The computer had got fed up with looking at all the terrible things people are capable of and wanted to "kill" itself. But it couldn't, so it needed to goad a human into killing it.

It's a variation on Juvenal's "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (Who guards the guardians? or Who watches the watchers?). Are people who deal with criminals, especially with the criminally insane, damaged by the constant exposure to them?


Science fiction isn't all about rocket ships and ray guns. Not all of it is even set in the future. A lot of it should really be called something more like "ideas fiction" because the word "science" does put a lot of people off the genre. A lot of it is really looking at problems in society, real or potential, and exploring possible solutions.

Steve
Steve Crook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 08:46 AM
  post #28
batman is the man!
Chief Member OBME
 
batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Norwich
Gender: Male
Posts: 19,552
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (13)
Default
That sounds like a good story.

I used to have a vacuum cleaner called a Multi-Vac.
I'm the cutest bottom judge!
batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 08:58 AM
  post #29
batman is the man!
Chief Member OBME
 
batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Norwich
Gender: Male
Posts: 19,552
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (13)
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Crook View Post
It's a variation on Juvenal's "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (Who guards the guardians? or Who watches the watchers?). Are people who deal with criminals, especially with the criminally insane, damaged by the constant exposure to them?
Steve
There is research that states people shouldn't work with the criminally insane for longer than two years ..... I am in my 11th year so I am keeping my gob shut.
I'm the cutest bottom judge!
batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 09:00 AM
  post #30
john audley has no status.
Senior Member
 
john audley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: scarborough
Posts: 476
My Mood:
Country:
iTrader: (0)
Default
I see this nice gentleman, Fritzl, in Austria is trying to claim insanity for his indescribable deeds. But I thought insanity meant one could not recall what one has done? He seems to be able to supply all the data possible over twenty four years.
'You should be kind to us normals, there are not many of us left you know'!
john audley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 34 >


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:05 PM.
SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0 ©2008, Crawlability, Inc.
 Copyright © 1998-2008 BritMovie