Jackdaw

I have a great problem with ID cards, and an even greater problem with the data base that will back them up.
I'm also concerned that when everybody's profile is on the data base, and it will be one day, scientific evidence will be the sole criterion on which a conviction is based.
That would leave everyone at the mercy of dishonest minions of the state, whether they be policemen, security forces or forensic officers etc., who are in a position to contaminate or falsify evidence. Of course, detractors will say that this is a danger at the present time, but I fear that the march of science will bring with it a culture of the infallibility of forensic evidence.
For some time now, I've also had a fear that criminals who have left a trace, and in time to come one's mere presence in a room will be detectable, will be more likely to take drastic action to destroy evidence.
For example, the rapist may turn killer to cover his crime, the burglar may turn arsonist to destroy evidence.
Indeed, we all know that twoccers routinely torch cars to destroy DNA evidence, and murderers hide or destroy bodies of their victims.
What I refer to is merely an expansion of this.

batman

We have a national police database already called the PNC. Also, criminals have been destroying evidence and hiding bodies for centuries. Ever heard of Dr Crippen, he murdered his wife and buried her in the cellar. He was caught by new technology .... radio!

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

batman

Both my wife and I work for the NHS. Prior to that my wife worked for the police. We have both heard all the stories of police corruption and NHS incompetence and all about the widespread abuse of power of most government establishments. In all our combined years of working for these two institutions we have, of course, come across incidents which give cause for concern but in general the people are honest hard working people. In the course of my work I deal with the police and the Ministry of Justice and I have never encountered any of these corrupt individuals who are supposed to be out to get us. Maybe I'm one of them ........

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

davidb

i dont think history will be kind to the generation that gave up our freedoms and libertys so easily .gave up various rights such as, innocent till proved guilty ,the right to remain silent ie the burden of proof is with the prosecution ,the complete freedom of movement weve had in these isle ie no id cards ,the right for the state not to demand money or other punishment without the individual having access to a fair trial ie speeding/parking convictions . who was the ogre we gave these rights up to ? why some self serving cosmopolitan lawyers and media types masquerading as the labour party ! thats who .our ancestors laid down their lives for the freedoms we enjoy in this country you know !

batman

Who is saying we should up give up such rights? Not me. ID cards would have no more of a detrimental effect on your civil liberty than your NI card, your passport or your driving licence. All these items are linked to a national database already.

Who wants to give up the right to innocence before being proved guilty? Not me. I see DNA evidence as no more onerous than fingerprints and if it helps catch the bad guys what is wrong with that? I fail to see how either of these issues will lead to the destruction of the criminal justice system?

Members of my family lost their lives in WWI and WWII so I know about the sacrifices these people made and I have no wish to give up what they fought for. I simply fail to see how a national ID card and/or improved technology to catch criminals will precipitate the downfall of democracy.

I have a passport, a driving licence and credit/debit cards. I have been regularly checked by the CRB for both work and other reasons and am subject to CCTV surveillance nearly every day. I know that the details of my financial affairs, my work record and the details of my family are all recorded on computers. But I do not feel at all as if my rights have been violated or that I am at risk of losing the right to a fair trial should I ever get into trouble with the law.

Call me naive or simple minded if you wish, but all this talk of society being undermined by innovations in criminal evidence gathering, or the possible introduction of a card that will give 'Big Brother' no more information than it has already just strikes me as paranoia, and I get enough of that at work!

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

davidb

maybe you dont want to see those rights disintergrate but theyve all been adjusted [ for the worst if your an ordinary citizen ] in the last ten years .the greatest thing about being british is or perhaps was our freedoms .you want to see what the inland revenue can do these days ,as in force their way into your home or office without a search warrant .another law overturned for the states benefit just in the last couple of years

davidb

as far as dna is concerned ,how long till its planted in order to frame someone ? im sure if that kind of evidence had been available in the 70s it would have been used against the guildford four ,ie framed them with it .not saying that its not useful but its already been proved unreliable evidence in court and people have been released on appeal

batman

It's called an evolving society ..... laws have been changing for centuries to adapt to new technologies, migrating populations, crime rates and financial boom and bust. Think of the problems of the industrial revolution and how society changed because of new technology nearly 200 years ago. Think of the furore that occurred when police forces first started appearing. We are not in a new situation but a recurring one .... societies will keep evolving as long as societies exist, for better or worse. As 'ordinary citizens' we have to make the best of the hand we are dealt. We can bleat and moan about it and will sometimes have small victories, but societies will always grow and change.

ps - The Inland Revenue have had the power to enter home or office without warrant for decades, not just the last ten years. They are also the only organisation that you cannot sue.

pps - Framing of prisoners via DNA has one flaw ..... you can always give another sample to be independently tested. Mistakes will also happen as they do in all walks of life .... very unreliable at times us humans.

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

amina

I also think the DNA database they suggested is also a joke, it would only ever work if every person that entered the country had a sample taken. Even then it would be acurate.

Jackdaw

You are not really addressing other peoples concerns in your posts, but merely reiterating your own beliefs.
You appear very sanguine about the national data base. Are you not aware of the potential faults in the system, or are you singing with your fingers in your ears?
Your pps misses the point entirely - please address peoples' arguments.

Steve Crook

The existence of ID cards won't be a problem with most people.
The requirement to always have it with you and to use it for all forms or recognition will be a problem

Steve

Jackdaw

The problems will be:
What will happen if you cannot produce your card
Who can demand to see your card, and on what grounds
What information will he be able to access when he has it
Will you know what information he has just accessed
What protection do you have against unauthorised persons accessing your details
How will a huge data base with so many portals be secured
This goes on forever.
If you're found unconscious in the street, presumably someone will need to access your medical records.
Who will that person be
Ambulance man, telephone operator, accident/emergency technical support, whoever
What password will they use, who else will know the passwords, how much and what sort of information will they have access to, what is to stop them accessing the details of anyone else they come across
What safeguards are there to prevent public servants selling information to the media, insurance companies, private investigators etc.
Forget your credit card details, your tax returns, your hospital records etc, never has there been before such an all-embracing collection of private information about the individual all available from one source, at the swipe of a card or the input of a name or number.
Before I close, I would remind you that the government was recently proposing to allow your council to read your emails.
Yes, that's right, your council.
Of course, I'm well aware that I have nothing to fear if I've done nothing wrong.

Mark O

'Physically enlarged non-gender specific Sibling' is watching you!

Whatever the rights and wrongs of compulsory ID cards in the UK, the odds are we 'ordinary' people won't be able to do a damn thing about it!

Mark

batman

Most of us carry our credit cards and our driving licences with us, so to slip another card in your wallet shouldn't cause too much hassle.

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

Mark O

True, but are we expected to pay for this damn thing?

Mark