Steve Crook

In one way or another, by direct or indirect taxes, you'll be paying for it

Steve

Steve Crook

But it's not compulsory to carry any of those things and none of them tie together as much information about you if you lose it

Steve

samkydd

European countries like Italy have had ID cards for many years. There's no problem for them, and when they travel around Europe they don't need a passport.

You buy something with a credit card "Can I see your ID?" Less credit card fraud.

Policeman stops suspicious car "What's your name sonny?"

"Er, Fred Bloggs!"

"Can I see your ID?"

Presently there is no requirement to carry your Driving Licence and so people have lied about their identity because they have no insurance and/or licence. It's funny how people's attitude to this suddenly changes if someone they know happens to be the victim of an unlicenced, uninsured, incompetent and untrained driver ploughing into them in a bus queue or something.

Under age kids buying booze in off-licences would have to show their ID, so less drunken and violent chavs roaming the streets.

People signing on for multiple benefits using several National Insurance numbers would be found out instantly. Also the common problem of fraud using other people's children to claim more benefits would disappear.

Most of us have to carry ID anyway to get into the building at work, so what difference does it make having a universal one? I bet anti-ID card people wouldn't refuse to have one for work, otherwise they'd be out of the door!

If the government want to keep tabs on you they can quite easily anyway, so the introduction of ID cards would have no bearing on their target surveillance operations, but it would deter a lot of people with criminal intent.

No doubt in the future we will have a chip inserted in the back of our necks at birth, updated remotely everytime you change your job, address, partner etc. Now that would be scary, but ID cards are fine as far as I'm concerned. I cannot understand anti-ID card people's point of view. If it's purely Civil Liberties why haven't they objected to the thousands of CCTV cameras currently monitoring our every move in towns and cities throughout the land?

"...the chairman of Littlewoods stores made a Keynote speech!"

batman

You seem to base your argument solely on hypothetical scenarios and paranoia, whereas mine do generally have a basis in fact!

But if you feel it necessary ....

The problems will be:
What will happen if you cannot produce your card
You will be given time to produce it in the same way as if you cannot produce any other document.
Who can demand to see your card, and on what grounds
The same people check your ID now ... the police, customs, pub landlords, the tax man, your bank (no one sinister there).
What information will he be able to access when he has it
Your name and address ... it's an ID card!
Will you know what information he has just accessed
Possibly not ... but do you know what info the police check if you have to hand in your driving licence?
What protection do you have against unauthorised persons accessing your details
The same that you do now ... it's called The Data Protection Act.
How will a huge data base with so many portals be secured
In the same way that your current details are secured.
If you're found unconscious in the street, presumably someone will need to access your medical records.
Why? If someone collapses in the street you call 999, why should that change?
Who will that be? Ambulance man, telephone operator, accident/emergency technical support, whoever
A&E, ambulance staff and technical support already have access to your medical details via the NHS database, no change there then.
What password will they use, who else will know the passwords, how much and what sort of information will they have access to, what is to stop them accessing the details of anyone else they come across
They would use your NI number as they do now!
What safeguards are there to prevent public servants selling information to the media, insurance companies, private investigators etc.
The law! The Data Protection Act covers these issues.
Forget your credit card details, your tax returns, your hospital records etc, never has there been before such an all-embracing collection of private information about the individual all available from one source, at the swipe of a card or the input of a name or number
That sort of card is unlikely to be implemented straight away because the technology to facilitate it would take years to set up.
Before I close, I would remind you that the government was recently proposing to allow your council to read your emails.
Yes, that's right, your council.
I saw that somewhere and my first impression was that it was media hype and bollocks! Just get yourself a decent firewall, that'll keep the bastards out!
Of course, I'm well aware that I have nothing to fear if I've done nothing wrong
Good, I hope you keep it that way.

Does that satisfy you? Probably not.

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

Steve Crook

Have you actually read anything about what is proposed? It's far from "just an ID card" with just your name and address on it

Steve

Mark O

Interesting comments on this thread, I'm gradually swinging round, maybe if ID cards help the fight against Benefit fraud and Terrorism, then maybe they are a good thing

If I go on a daytrip to France I'm still required to take my Passport with me, (and it's checked) even though the EU is supposed to have 'open borders'!

Mark

batman

The police have a DNA database already .... that's how they caught the bloke who wrote the 'Ripper letters'. It works fine as a method of collating DNA evidence but, like anything else in life, it is not perfect. To expect anything to be 100% perfect is not realistic. Human error will always be a factor.

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

batman

I have read several different proposals (not just one) .... one is the super-duper swipe card with everything including your collar size on it and which at the present time is impractical to introduce ..... most of the others, and where the one more likely to be introduced is housed, are to simply identify who you are, where you live etc etc.

Your super-duper swipe card featured in an article recently in The Daily Mail ... have you been sneakily reading your favourite paper again?

"Boom boom a baby .... Banham Zoo .... Banana pants! Hahahaha"

Steve Crook

No, but I read the computer trade press where it's been discussed for some time. Mainly discussing the impossibility of doing it and how any associated data can't be made 100% (or even 50%) secure.

You seem to put a lot of faith into the Data Protection Act. Nobody in the computer industry does.

If you lose your card, what then?

Even if it's the basic card then anyone else can use it to open a bank account or credit card account in your name. And then drain your credit.

If it's the full, super-duper card then they'll have access to all your existing financial & personal details.

Are you still a fan of them?

Steve

aaron

And human manipulation/misuse of such material, will always be another...

'He who is not one up...Is one down'

batman

More hypothetical arguments!

Of course I am still a fan.

Identity fraud etc happens now .... ask Harleybloke .... so why should something that could happen to me anyway put me off appreciating an idea that could make that less likely to happen.

I have to work with The Data Protection Act and it works fine for us. Perhaps we in the NHS are more trustworthy than the computer industry.

If I lose my card I expect I will have means to inform the ID Card Agency (or whatever) and they will cancel it as banks do with credit card losses.

I understand that no system is 100% foolproof .... I just find it baffling that you are so willing to condemn something before it's even been tried.

Suck it and see .... you never know, you may like it!

Steve Crook

Hypothetical? This is a discussion by the people who will have to implement it, and run it. They have no faith in it.

If the card itself (the super-duper card being proposed) carries all your financial information and account details on it then it can't be cancelled - unless you also cancel all your bank accounts, credit card accounts etc. etc.

A card like that will make identity theft a lot more likely and more common. At the moment it's still very rare (note that nobody's replied to my appeal for actual examples)

Your part of the NHS might not have any problem with the Data Protection Act, but plenty of others do. The Data Protection Act does nothing to help actually secure data, it's a way to try and get redress when people fail to secure data - and do things like lose or throw away folders fill of patient records.

ID cards, like the new computer system for the NHS, is a good idea in theory. Sadly it's the practise that's severely lacking and as there is hardly a single politician or senior civil servant that understands anything about technology it's easy for the consults to bamboozle them and say "Yes, we can do this if you pay us loads of money".

Steve

1stas

I have no problem with ID cards - they are used in most other countries - if you have got nothing to hide - why not?
They will help get rid of a lot of underirables.

samkydd

I think that because of the terrorist threat and the underestimated huge increase in population since 2004 when many poorer nations got into the EU and headed straight for the UK, there are just not enough police to cope. Therefore the priority of certain "lesser" crimes has been lowered otherwise the police would be overwhelmed.

To address this we can either pay a 33% increase in our Council Tax to pay for the extra police needed or preventative measures can be implemented. Citizens have to take on some of the responsibility for keeping their communities safe and if it's a shopkeeper checking the bona fides of a customer it's not really much of an issue.

One thing I do object to with the police is the amount that are used for civic duties and football matches. Although the authority concerned is paid for police attendance at football games, there is no reason why the football club can't employ security firms to do this job. Police in cars driving aimlessly around towns has never worked, and I was pleased to see a couple of PCs on mountain bikes in my area the other day. I would also like to see beat officers travel around on buses and trains instead of being ferried about in cars and vans all the time. Visible deterrants have always been successful and if the will was there by senior policemen to get back to basics then I'm sure it would be successful.

"...the chairman of Littlewoods stores made a Keynote speech!"

Mark O

I hope so Jackdaw, at the moment I'm neutral about ID cards, but I'm looking for guidance amongst these posts about which way I should swing........

Mark