The Rolling Stones

[David Brent]

The Rolling Stones have just embarked on a short Australian tour.
You have to hand it to the ageing rockers they can still put out a mean concert and fill out a stadium.
Having seen recent film clips from some of the Stones concerts on this world tour I have noticed one glaring point from the footage.
Is Keith Richards actually playing any live guitar on stage these days? He now tends to just take mild swipes at the guitar strings while Ronnie Wood seems to be doing all the work.
It beggars the question, is Keith Richards actually miming live guitar on stage?
Has it come to this?

Dave.

[penfold]

I may be wrong but I thought that that was all Keef ever did - not mime exactly, but strum and pose....the real guitarist was always someone else - Brian Jones, Mick Taylor and now Ronnie....Keef is in the band for his songwriting, and now, probably, just for old time's sake...the 'Now that Brian's gone I can take over lead duties at last' scenario never happened did it....as it would have done for a more talented guitarist. Keef is iconic for all sorts of reasons, but not, to the best of my knowledge, for his guitar work. Similarly Ringo in the Beatles. A rather lame journo once asked Lennon if Ringo was the best drummer in the world; 'He's not even the best drummer in The Beatles' came the harsh but quite possibly true answer....

[penfold]

What Ringo brought was his image; it fitted in better with those of the rest of the band. Famously, Ringo didn't get to drum on the first hit, a session musician called Alan White took over for the recording....though in fairness to Ringo, it was the Beatles that hitched him to their train, not the other way round.

[samkydd]

The Stones have always had dual lead guitars, and the style of interplay between Richards and Woods has given us the trademark pounding riffs and the gutsy playing that drives the whole piece. They don't always play the same individual guitar parts all the time, they 'weave'.

Ron Woods used to be better known as a slide guitar player before he joined the Stones, a relative newcomer as he's only been with them since about 1975 I think. When he joined he had the unenviable task of learning all the lead guitar parts for most of their huge repertoire of songs before going out on the road with them, no mean feat for anybody. I suspect that now that he's settled in after 31 years, Ron knows the songs backwards and if Keith is having a particularly bad night Ron would be able to help him out, so that the effect of the dual lead weaving would still be heard.

Keith is the epitome of the anti-establishment hero, everything they say you shouldn't do he's done by the bucket load and he's still with us.

[foha80]

(penfold @ Apr 12 2006, 07:02 AM) I may be wrong but I thought that that was all Keef ever did - not mime exactly, but strum and pose....the real guitarist was always someone else - Brian Jones, Mick Taylor and now Ronnie....Keef is in the band for his songwriting, and now, probably, just for old time's sake...the 'Now that Brian's gone I can take over lead duties at last' scenario never happened did it....as it would have done for a more talented guitarist. Keef is iconic for all sorts of reasons, but not, to the best of my knowledge, for his guitar work. Similarly Ringo in the Beatles. A rather lame journo once asked Lennon if Ringo was the best drummer in the world; 'He's not even the best drummer in The Beatles' came the harsh but quite possibly true answer....

Hello Penfold
These are good old stories that are passed down but they couldn't be further from the truth,Ringo was brought into the Beatles simply because he was the best in Liverpool he already was a working musician.It is true that at the first sessions for Parlophone,George Martin
fearful of using an untried drummer in the studio brought in a session player Something that Ringo never fails to remind George Martin about.

The populist view of pop/rock bands is that in order of importance it is lead guitar,rhythm guitar,bass,drums, when in fact it is the opposite which is true.Drummers from John Bonham to Phil Collins are on record as saying that they owe him a debt.John Lennons very funny remark aside,all the Beatles knew that he was a large part of their success without him the group would have died just Like Led Zeppelin and The Who did when they lost there drummers.Ringo runs & fills can be heard all over the music from the sixties till the present day.If you like Beatles music take fresh ears back and to the drumming on

Ticket To Ride, (you hear the birth of modern rock drumming)
Rain (concieved by Starr and is repute to have been executed in a astonishing one take)
Tomorrow Never Knows Tell me you don't hear this rhythm of modern dance music


Keith Richards that one is easier,he is the sound of of the Rolling Stones.It was he that married the hard chicago blues of Muddy Waters to the pop sensibilities of Chuck Berry to make the riff driven sound of the Rolling Stones.For a short time in the late sixties early seventies they really were the greatest rock band in the world.

Back then there were thousands of guitarists who would happily take over without a second thought the lead guitar duties in the Stones but I wager you wouldn't find a musician who would have the chutzpah to take over Keith Richards role in the Stones.

If in concert footage it seems that Ronnie has all the flash guitar parts while Keith poses about,then that is OK,that is what Ronnie gets paid to do.The real hard work was carried out back at the genesis of these songs when Keith infused the swaggering sound of the rolling stones into them.Please listen with fresh ears to sound of Keith in these songs:

Street Fighting Man
Jumping Jack Flash
Brown Sugar

There are a lot rock music fans on this forum those of us who grew up in the 60's & 70's were very fortunate indeed with the music that surrounded us.But as the popular views of Ringo and Keith show
there is a dumb down revisionist history being foisted on us by lazy incompetant journalist.

When Bob Dylan wote

"There is something going on here and you don't know what it is,do you,Mr.Jones"

It was aimed at journalists not us.Our ears should tell us the truth,not them after all we had the best teachers.


Terry

[samkydd]

(penfold @ Apr 12 2006, 07:02 AM) I may be wrong but I thought that that was all Keef ever did - not mime exactly, but strum and pose....the real guitarist was always someone else - Brian Jones, Mick Taylor and now Ronnie....Keef is in the band for his songwriting, and now, probably, just for old time's sake...the 'Now that Brian's gone I can take over lead duties at last' scenario never happened did it....as it would have done for a more talented guitarist. Keef is iconic for all sorts of reasons, but not, to the best of my knowledge, for his guitar work. Similarly Ringo in the Beatles. A rather lame journo once asked Lennon if Ringo was the best drummer in the world; 'He's not even the best drummer in The Beatles' came the harsh but quite possibly true answer....

Keith is an excellent guitar player hence his nickname "The Human Riff".

Ringo talks a lot about how he came to be in The Beatles on a birthday edition of:

http://www.littlestevensundergroundgarage....ay/archive.html

If you select Archived Shows from 2005 and go to show number 170 and click jukebox, he 'll tell you all about it.

[arty-dave]

(foha80 @ Apr 12 2006, 01:42 PM) There are a lot rock music fans on this forum those of us who grew up in the 60's & 70's were very fortunate indeed with the music that surrounded us.

Absolutely - and I'm so glad I was a teenager in the 60's. I'd hate to be one now....

[penfold]

Terry, I think you somewhat missed my point - that Keef is not and never has been the best guitarist in the Stones...but that being the rhythm guitarist - the riff man - has always been his job, that with the looking cool and being co-songwriter. World class at all three. And of course being in the Stones, he gets a lot of the hero worship for their success...in terms of their sound, well of course he's at least partly responsible...but it's all a bit...basic??
You want a top guitarist? Hendrix. thats the Delta blues sound coming through. Jeff Beck, Pete Townsend, both criminally underrated. Clapton? Excellent but overrated. Richard Thompson? Completely unique. From Hendrix to Django Reinhardt via fiddle and pipe tunes. No-one like him anywhere.
I wouldn't swap Ringo for anyone for the Beatles...because they wouldn't have lasted five minutes without him, particularly his sense of humour; he was the glue that bound; the other three egos would have exploded the group about 1965 otherwise, especially with the fourth ego of Pete Best being still there.....but I'm not sure about his drumming. In terms of his influence on others, well, he was the first personality drummer outside of jazz...before him kids wanted to be guitarists only, he gave them an option...
Now being deliberately controversial; potentially the best drummer this country ever produced died at 18. Get hold of Fairport Convention's 'What we did on our Holidays' and listen to what Martin Lamble could already achieve...he was dead within months...actually his best recorded work is on the radio session version of Suzanne on the 'Heyday' album, or the alternate take of Sailors Life on a Richard Thompson retrospective 'Watching The Dark', but 'Holidays' will take your breath away....

[samkydd]

(penfold @ Apr 12 2006, 04:43 PM) Terry, I think you somewhat missed my point - that Keef is not and never has been the best guitarist in the Stones...but that being the rhythm guitarist - the riff man - has always been his job,

Like I said before, they don't have a rhythm guitar player as such, it's a dual lead role for both guitarists. There was a programme on the wireless called The History of the Riff and both were on it discussing the way they play together.

A true story Keith told about himself was that he was in a hotel and he used to play his guitar with a tape machine running trying out new stuff he'd thought up, until he'd eventually fall asleep. In the morning he'd wind the tape back to listen in case he'd laid down something worth using, but more often that not he'd just record over it again without bothering to listen. On one occasion he decided to play the tape back and he found he had the opening riff and most of the song (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction followed by about 30 minutes of snoring!

[foha80]

(penfold @ Apr 12 2006, 04:43 PM) Terry, I think you somewhat missed my point -

Hello Penfold
If I have missed your point then apologies,from your post I see clearly that you have a love for music so we are kindred spirits.Hendrix,Beck,Townsend,Clapton, I can't separate them but the one thing you and I are in full agreement is about Richard Thompson he is something a bit special and the 3 cd retrospective Watching the Dark should belong in everyones collection (Calvary Cross+ I stll Dream+ Sailors Life )Thank you for the reminder it been a while since I listened.

Will check out the Fairports album- I appreciate your insights and reccomendations to listen are always welcome


Best Wishes

Terry

[DB7]

(David Brent @ Apr 12 2006, 06:38 AM) Is Keith Richards actually playing any live guitar on stage these days? He now tends to just take mild swipes at the guitar strings while Ronnie Wood seems to be doing all the work. It beggars the question, is Keith Richards actually miming live guitar on stage? Has it come to this? Dave.

It's quite common, a friend worked as a roadie for U2 on an Irish tour and apparently the guitar tech was underneath the stage playing to aid The Edge. I wasn't too surprised as it must be difficult recreating multi-layered studio tracks live on stage; but a group with lead and rhythm guitarest's should cope. Maybe Keith has Pete Townsend rsi wrists?

[penfold]

(foha80 @ Apr 12 2006, 04:23 PM) Hello Penfold If I have missed your point then apologies,from your post I see clearly that you have a love for music so we are kindred spirits.Hendrix,Beck,Townsend,Clapton, I can't separate them but the one thing you and I are in full agreement is about Richard Thompson he is something a bit special and the 3 cd retrospective Watching the Dark should belong in everyones collection (Calvary Cross+ I stll Dream+ Sailors Life)Thank you for the reminder it been a while since I listened. Will check out the Fairports album- I appreciate your insights and reccomendations to listen are always welcome Best Wishes Terry

I'd like to hear what you think when you do...it's my all-time personal favourite....you want the lp from 1968 mind, with the drawing on the blackboard cover, not the 2004ish compilation with the same name.... Holidays cover

[ollie]

i'm So tempted to chip in but i better leave it.

cheers Ollie.

[samkydd]

(ollie @ Apr 12 2006, 07:25 PM) i'm So tempted to chip in but i better leave it. cheers Ollie.

I get very emotive when talking guitar players. Joe Satriani is probably technically one of the most gifted in the world today, but IMHO Stevie Ray Vaughn was the best since Hendrix, and he died young as well!

[Steve Crook]

(samkydd @ Apr 12 2006, 07:46 PM) I get very emotive when talking guitar players. Joe Satriani is probably technically one of the most gifted in the world today, but IMHO Stevie Ray Vaughn was the best since Hendrix, and he died young as well!

Note for all potential musicians (and other artists), although a lot of musicians and artists have taken to drink and drugs and died young, it wasn't doing any of those that made them better artists.

Steve