Chavs Have it Their Way

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Moor Larkin The King George's Jubilee Trust report of 1939, The Needs of Youth, summed up a catalogue of complaint that is uncannily familiar: "Relaxation of parental control, decay of religious influence, and the transplantation of masses of young persons to housing estates where there is little scope for recreation and plenty for mischief ... The problem is a serious challenge, the difficulty of which is intensified by the extension of freedom which, for better or worse, has been given to youth in the last generation." This panic over youth disorder is nothing new, says Geoffrey Pearson | Society | SocietyGuardian.co.uk Yup......

Did you see the documentary looking at the antics of "chavs" and similar and getting them to read out reports from the past that described the behaviour of people as being exactly what is seen on the streets today. The newspapers love to pretend that it's a recent phenomenon. It isn't, people, especially British people, have always been like that

Steve

[samkydd]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook The Army are strongly against it. They are a highly specialised, technological force. They don't want any old riff-raff off the streets. And they want them for more than a few years so that they get a return on the investment in training them Steve

I thought that they might fulfil a useful auxilliary role; marching in advance of the real soldiers, and jumping up and down at the side of the road in their bouncy trainers to see if there were any mines or roadside bombs lurking!

Originally Posted by Steve Crook The newspapers love to pretend that it's a recent phenomenon. It isn't, people, especially British people, have always been like that Steve

Yes society's been the same for hundreds of years, we've always had a divide between "the Chavs" and "the Chav-nots"!

[clitheroekid]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook It isn't, people, especially British people, have always been like that

I don't care what anyone says, people being kicked to death is a recent phenomena. There has been lots of film shown of fights from the 60's and 70's, but look closely and you will see that it is very rare anyone will "put the boot in" to the head. That is what is happening now and that is why there are so many fatalities.

Again, I don't care what anyone says about "hoodies" being troublemakers. The ones who are responsible for ganging up on people and kicking them to death and also smashing phone kiosks and bus shelters all have one thing in common and are easily identifiable: they tuck there track suit pants into their socks. In other words, if you see a youth who has his pants tucked into his socks, I guarantee they are on the look out for trouble and will either have, or will soon get, a criminal record.

My method of dealing with these people is to make their parent/s more responsible, ie if they are caught causing damage or involved in assault, fine their parent/guardian £10,000 and humiliate the offender by dressing him/her in a fluorescent boiler suit and get them to clean up litter and graffitti. If they reoffend, life imprisonment with no chance of release.

For anyone who wilfully commits murder, like those two scumbags who tortured and then killed a 4 year old - life imprisonment, doing hard-labour with no chance of release, essentially they would die of old age inside.

People who are caught using a mobile phone when driving, give them a £5,000 fine and have their vehicle impounded on the spot and crushed - people would probably think twice about using their phone in such circumstances.

Reckless drivers similarly would be given life imprisonment with no chance of release.

A full-page advert in every newspaper, carried once a week and paid for by the fines imposed upon criminals, would set out what to expect if you misbehave.

They say prisons don't work, and to a certain degree that is right. But being in prison these days is like an extended holiday. The only thing a prison doesn't give is freedom of movement, every other creature comfort is provided. If a spell in prison meant hard labour, no "luxuries" like television and the like, then again people might think twice if they knew what to expect if they were locked up.

I'm not really in favour of the death penalty. A lifetime of remorse doing hard labour is my chosen method.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by clitheroekid I don't care what anyone says, people being kicked to death is a recent phenomena. There has been lots of film shown of fights from the 60's and 70's, but look closely and you will see that it is very rare anyone will "put the boot in" to the head. That is what is happening now and that is why there are so many fatalities.

It may not have been shown on film in the past, but it happened in real life and has been happening for years.

Again, I don't care what anyone says about "hoodies" being troublemakers. The ones who are responsible for ganging up on people and kicking them to death and also smashing phone kiosks and bus shelters all have one thing in common and are easily identifiable: they tuck there track suit pants into their socks. In other words, if you see a youth who has his pants tucked into his socks, I guarantee they are on the look out for trouble and will either have, or will soon get, a criminal record.

Please never let this person be a judge or magistrate. People shouldn't be judged on their dress sense

Steve

[samkydd]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook It may not have been shown on film in the past, but it happened in real life and has been happening for years. Steve

Given that the prisons are overcrowded, why not a semi-amnesty scheme where long term prisoners can either elect to stay in prison, or volunteer to work in places like Ethiopia putting in irrigation schemes or building pre-fab schools and other dwellings etc.? It's unlikely that they'd try and escape, and in return for this humanitarian work then perhaps they would get a generous remission on their sentence.

Alternatively, export the convicted felons to countries where land is plentiful and large prisons can be built cheaper than in the UK (Australia perhaps? ). The East European economies need a boost and so ideally we could sub-contract prison care to one or two of those countries, which would provide a great deal of employment and take the burden away from the UK (who said "coals to Newcastle")!

[penfold]

My stepfather was in the Met in the late fifties...the things he witnessed in the days when motorcycle chains and straight razors were the weapons of choice would make your hair curl. This of course was only the amateur hoodlums - the pro's had guns, then as now, just then they were ex-military pistols, for which National Service had provided proper training...

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by penfold My stepfather was in the Met in the late fifties...the things he witnessed in the days when motorcycle chains and straight razors were the weapons of choice would make your hair curl. This of course was only the amateur hoodlums - the pro's had guns, then as now, just then they were ex-military pistols, for which National Service had provided proper training...

It's always been like that.
Sherlock Holmes always armed himself when he went into some of the less salubrious parts of town. Canes and sword sticks weren't just to help you because you had a bad leg.

In fact present times are one of the most crime-free and safest times in the UK. But that doesn't sell many papers so they report every single crime as if it's part of a crime wave and everybody's doing it

Steve

[penfold]

Of course....and the true events that inspired Brighton Rock - razor-armed gangs terrorising racegoers at South Coast racetracks - occurred from the late twenties throught to the late thirties.

[Fareham_Bee]

Can never agree with the death penalty but do think that life should mean just that, and no extravagant privileges either. And no it's no deterrent, it didn't stop Hindley and Brady did it? There have been too many miscarraiges of justice, including recently and the example of Barry Bulsara is a great one.

They were discussing this on Radio 5 this morning and the host was saying why not just let these hooligans get on with smashing a few bricks off your wall if it means you could die for stopping them. The answwer to that is, if you let them break a few bricks they will move up a league knowing you will do nothing to stop them and they will push you to see how far they can go.

I have a son with Aspergers Syndrome and the local kids up the park used to get off on picking on him because they knew they'd get a reaction. That is, until I drove up there in a right old mood one night, and whilst on the phone to the emergency services (they were ganging up and threatening allsorts) I went into them and shouted at the biggest, if he felt he was hard then he should have a go at me because I will hit back. He just looked at his feet. I then turned and asked the others telling them if they really wanted to play then we could. I am not a big bloke but the mood they had put me into and protecting your own just comes first. They all started whining that they were only joking and didn't mean any harm. In the end we got talking and they have been ok with him since, but they know there is a line they cannot cross or I'll be back (cue the Arnie impressions LOL).

I can see why this bloke in Warrington went out and did what he did and I have no doubt that others on this board will have the same sort of story to tell and will all say the same, when it comes to protecting your family you don't think, you just do. As this is the case, sadly I feel this won't be the last time scum like this kill someone.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by Fareham_Bee I can see why this bloke in Warrington went out and did what he did and I have no doubt that others on this board will have the same sort of story to tell and will all say the same, when it comes to protecting your family you don't think, you just do. As this is the case, sadly I feel this won't be the last time scum like this kill someone.

It probably won't be the last time.
But I ask you two questions.
1. Did they mean to kill him?
2. How many times does someone shout at some kids, telling them to leave something alone and they do just that.

Steve

[kelp]

Originally Posted by samkydd Yes and a two year old was stabbed to death in Barking, which was reported on the news this morning. I used to be anti-death penalty but these days I think it would seem the only solution. To ensure that there are no miscarriages of justice, perhaps a minimum of ten years in solitary first then hang! Plenty of time to get an appeal heard then, or for new evidence to come forward (and also plenty of time for the guilty to reflect on his/her crimes).

Some time ago, I got "called" by a few members, who, rightly or wrongly said I was quite wrong to talk about the return of Capital Punishment. As I said, they have a right to their opinions. At the time I didn't mention it because I decided to back off, as I was made to feel a bit like a nut case, and I bowed to their views, just to keep the peace. Since you have brought it to the fore again, I should make it clear why I feel like I do. My eldest son was shot by a drug addict, who raided his store in Irwindale, in California in 1995. At the time I wrote to the Chief Constable of my home County, Staffordshire, and in my letter pointed out that I had not had closure on this, as the attacker had got away with it. Would he please look carefully at my experience, and what was happening in East Los Angeles, where nine year olds had automatic pistols and where, in such a relatively small suburburban area, over 100 thousand gangs operated, all armed, all out of control, and would he do what he could when attending ACPO meetings to try to stop the same thing happening here in the UK. I pointed it out to him that as an Island, we were in perhaps a better position to keep drugs and guns out, and to protect our youngsters. I didn't recieve a reply. I did recieve a reply from Bill Clintons office, who explained to me that they were doing all they could, but with the NRA being so strongly represented on both sides of the house it was so difficult to get anything done. I firmly believe that had our Government, our Police, our authorities acted then, we could have stopped getting to the position we are in today. Unfortunately, we have no deterrent. When the punishment is "a fine" and a whip round in the public gallery deals with it........when they get an ASBO, which is a badge of honour, and is cheered on from their friends. When Life for murder is a twelve year stretch, of which less than half will be served. Sorry, something needs changing and fast.
Anyway, that is why I feel like I do.

[Steve Crook]

Originally Posted by kelp Some time ago, I got "called" by a few members, who, rightly or wrongly said I was quite wrong to talk about the return of Capital Punishment. As I said, they have a right to their opinions. At the time I didn't mention it because I decided to back off, as I was made to feel a bit like a nut case, and I bowed to their views, just to keep the peace. Since you have brought it to the fore again, I should make it clear why I feel like I do. My eldest son was shot by a drug addict, who raided his store in Irwindale, in California in 1995. At the time I wrote to the Chief Constable of my home County, Staffordshire, and in my letter pointed out that I had not had closure on this, as the attacker had got away with it. Would he please look carefully at my experience, and what was happening in East Los Angeles, where nine year olds had automatic pistols and where, in such a relatively small suburburban area, over 100 thousand gangs operated, all armed, all out of control, and would he do what he could when attending ACPO meetings to try to stop the same thing happening here in the UK. I pointed it out to him that as an Island, we were in perhaps a better position to keep drugs and guns out, and to protect our youngsters. I didn't recieve a reply. I did recieve a reply from Bill Clintons office, who explained to me that they were doing all they could, but with the NRA being so strongly represented on both sides of the house it was so difficult to get anything done. I firmly believe that had our Government, our Police, our authorities acted then, we could have stopped getting to the position we are in today. Unfortunately, we have no deterrent. When the punishment is "a fine" and a whip round in the public gallery deals with it........when they get an ASBO, which is a badge of honour, and is cheered on from their friends. When Life for murder is a twelve year stretch, of which less than half will be served. Sorry, omething needs changing and fast. Anyway, that is why I feel like I do.

I'm sorry to hear about your son. But killing the person that killed him won't bring him back. It will just satisfy your immediate lust for revenge. But that is a fairly short term lust.

Did the attacker really just get a fine? That would be most unusual.

An eye for an eye just leaves everyone blind.

Steve

[penfold]

I'm sorry for your loss, and naturally your attitude to the death penalty will be informed by your experience....but while there are problem areas in our cities, that has always been the case; the death penalty will not in itself change that; there does need to be a crackdown on illegal gun ownership but that is a different argument. Fortunately we remain a very different place than East LA.

[DB7]

Originally Posted by clitheroekid Again, I don't care what anyone says about "hoodies" being troublemakers. The ones who are responsible for ganging up on people and kicking them to death and also smashing phone kiosks and bus shelters all have one thing in common and are easily identifiable: they tuck there track suit pants into their socks. In other words, if you see a youth who has his pants tucked into his socks, I guarantee they are on the look out for trouble and will either have, or will soon get, a criminal record.

This sounds no different to the regular punch-ups I saw at the local bus depot frequently throughout the 70s. All thats changed is the 'uniform', back then they were Mods and Rockers and each had their own identity. 'Hoodies' will pass in time, another garment will replace it.

Your comment that clothing is a guarentee of trouble reminds me of my own experience of prejudice. I bought a bike and a leather jacket in my late teens, and was frequently thrown out of pubs because I looked trouble.

The only worrying trend I've noticed is the increased use of knives and firearms in cities like Manchester and Nottingham.

[Fareham_Bee]

Originally Posted by Steve Crook It probably won't be the last time. But I ask you two questions. 1. Did they mean to kill him? 2. How many times does someone shout at some kids, telling them to leave something alone and they do just that. Steve

Steve, to answer question one. Does it really matter if they meant to kill him or not? They did. To front someone or even to give them a warning off slap is one thing (I don't condone btw) bu;t to go in with enough violence to kill them is completely different. You know when someone has had enough and to carry on is tantamount to meaning to kill someone so far as I am concerned. God, it's harder to argue a point in writing than it is over a pint! LOL.
Agree with the sentiments of the second question, and in the vast majority of cases the kids will do just that, or at worst, give you a mouthful of abuse or give it the large one in a show of bravado to their mates, and while there is no way I would want to sound like a Daily Mail writer, the fact that it is happening more often is frightening your average older person and angering the vast majority.

As a sad PS, it HAS happened again today, In Crystal Palace youths murdered someone who remonstrated with them for throwing litter into his car!