Plasma?

[Mr Oracle]

Let me get this straight firstly! I may have worked in an electrical shop in 1971ish and sold colour tvs, when the greatest thing since sliced bread was the 17" Ferguson at £175 (then money, today's value around £1850!) but I know zilch about modern TVs. We had a lovely 28" Panasonic CRT that lasted for years and when the tube went we bought a Phillips 100Hz CRT for £80. That can go upstairs as we need a new tv for our PS3-playing kids and to play Blu-Ray. Is it still acceptable as it were to buy a plasma as against LED? Also what does '600Hz sub-fiield motion' mean? I am not a sports enthusiast but would prefer a higher refresh rate for better film viewing. I just don't wnat to splash out money we cannot afford to lose and do a 'Betamax'!

[Santonix]

Buy LED. IMHO and having both a plasma and an LED, the LED gives a better picture and is much cheaper to run than the older plasma technology. The "600Hz" refers to the screen's refresh rate. Anything 100 Hz or over on a modern LED is more than adequate for a clear picture during fast moving scenes. The advantage of plasma is cost, they tend to be cheaper.

[Wolfgang]

It depends whether it is LED backlight or sidelight. LED TVs are generally sidelight systems, and are not much different to LCD TV in that respect. Backlight LED TVs are very expensive, and their extra cost probably is not worth warranted in terms of improved quality. So to all intents and purposes there is hardly any difference between LCD and LED TVs of comparitive cost.

Plasma offers superior refresh rates and better contrast so if you want it mainly for watching sports (where refresh rates are your priority) or films (where better contrast offers you deeper blacks) then Plasma is better, although Plasma on average tend to cost about 20% more. Good LCD TVs (with 100Hz refresh rates—bear in mind even 600Hz is 'slow' compared to plasma and LCD refresh rates are unlikely to ever challenge plasma) will give you adequate quality though, and superior Plasma quality might not even be noticeable unless you are watching ultra fast action scenes or night-time set scenes.

There are probably more relevant considerations to take into account: Plasma TVs start at about 42", so your room might not accommodate television that size. Also, if it is situated in room where it is often exposed to daylight shining in on it, you might be better off with LCD because LCD TVs have brighter pictures than Plasma; you may find yourself having to close your curtains to watch plasma. Another consideration is if your seating arrangements are at right-angles, because plasma has much better viewing angle than LCD. LCD TVs are best watched head-one, but if you put your TV in corner and need it to have wide viewing angle, then you are more likely to be better off with Plasma. Make sure you check your viewing angles in shop before you buy!

I do not think Beta-Max comparisons are valid; whether you get good quality plasma or LCD neither will become obsolete in regards to their intended function. If you make good buy now it will still be good buy in ten years; if you make bad buy it will be noticeable from day one.

[MikeB]

I'd entirely agree with Wolfgang - Plasma tends to have better blacks, is much faster in terms of reaction times, and generally has a less 'jagged' picture than LCD. Two of the people at work have them (I work part-time in an Audio/TV dept), and they love them. Dont worry about them needing regassing or burnout - their fine, and judging by the review for the Panasonic GT30, WhatHiFi loves them too. Certainly Pioneer's Plasma's were fantastic, and are still used by the magazine as their benchmark TV. The 600hz (and God knows how many times I've had to explain it doesn't mean a 600hz screen..) is 50hz x 12 (because it samples the picture 12 times) = 600hz. The only reason I know this is because the Panasonic rep explained it to us (fortunately), but as we pointed out, it still means its a 100hz panel at the end of the day (albeit a very good one). Plasma tends to also be very good at 3D because it has less 'crosstalk', but 3D will be mentioned later.

However, as Wolfgang points out, they start at 42 inches, and I have to admit their are less of them around. I know that when you look at the 42 Panasonics, most of them are LED, although the 46 and aboves will be plasma. The first question that needs to be asked is - where will you be in relation to the TV? (all the other questions Wolfgang asked are also excellent ones of course).

If you are 6 feet (1.5m) away from where the TV panel will be (remember that even a plasma will be no more than 4 inches deep, and LED even less, so eventhing will go further back), then your after a 32. If you 8 feet (2.25m), then go for a 37. If your 10 feet away, then its a 40/42 (only Panasonic still do 42, everyone else does 40). That will be perfect. Since you used to have a 28inch, the normal rule of thumb is a bit of a pain (you can certainly go up one size in terms of screen, and it will be the same overall dimensions - eg - old 26 = new 32). However, most 28 customers in my experience, do tend to go higher than either a 32 or even a 37 (which is frankly not the best size for choice anyway). I suspect your a 40, which gives you loads of choice, and good deals.

LCD and LED are cousins, with the LCD still being in front, but the tubes of an LCD replaced by LED's. They will be thinner, brighter, use less power and should last longer - and are now cheaper than ever before. All TV's should have Freeview HD (unless they are an old cheap model), will almost certainly be 1080 (which is what you want for Blu Ray), and most will be able to go online, be wifi'ed and will have DLNA to allow you to move data around.

Since you snagged a 100hz screen before, you wont want to go back to a 50hz, so 100hz plus should be your aim. That spec is basically now going to be LED. Some LED's are awful (Sharp - are you listening?), but most will be better than an older LCD. All will only have one scart (apart from old models), and Samsung has only had one for years. You should be looking for 4 HDMI's, and probably at least 1 USB, although most will have 2 or even 3 now (for Wifi, etc). Cheap TV's tend to lack these kind of thngs, which is why their cheap! Freeview HD is a must.

Also look out for older models looking like 'bargains'. Samsung's current TV's have 'D' in the model number (UE40D6530 for instance). If you see 'C' in the model number, its last years, which means your paying for a model possibly without features you'd like, or worse, possible paying more for last years model than this years! The Samsung 5 series LED was on sale from my branch for £429.95. It started out two months ago at about £599 (and was £60 cheaper than the equivelent 6 series was 4 months ago). Being charged £499 for last years model might seem like a good deal, until you look at this yeasr price. This is something supermarkets often do, because they buy old stock in bulk. I had one customer today who have a Sony TV with Freesat. That model is 2 years old, yet they were sold it at Christmas. I didn't ask them how much, but I suspect the worse..

Assuming your a 40in TV (most TV's come in all sizes, but 37in TV's are relatively thin on the ground), and knowing that you'll want to play a PS3 through it, 3D is not a bad idea (PS3's are 3D via firmwear), but starting with 2D, this is the way I'd advise you:

Sony EX503 Buy Sony Bravia KDL40EX503U LCD HD 1080p TV, 40 inch with Built-in Freeview HD online at JohnLewis.com £499 for a full 1080/100hz LCD, with Freeview HD, DLNA, Wfi enabled and Internet access. Very good TV (panel often prefered to the LED version), and won last yeasr WhatHIfi Tv of the year. Just come down to £499 from £599 (when it was over priced against the opposition), and there is even a deal on a Sony Blu-Ray.

But, for £100 more, you get the Samsung 5 series Buy Samsung UE40D5520 LCD/LED HD 1080p TV, 40 Inch with Built-in Freeview HD online at JohnLewis.com - last years 6 series, and about £150 cheaper than it was last year. Full spec as the Sony, but LED - very well reviewed, and I would have been happy to buy it myself. Probably the best value 2D 40 inch I can think of.

The Panasonics at this spec are very nice (The E30B LED), but its £749 (and the S30 plasma series dont have DNLA, etc) - basically they dont give better value v the price of the others, and their online stuff is relatively limited. But I really like their LED screens, and the 100hz LED backlighting/100hz screen combo is very good.

Above 100hz, they are going to be 3D. It don't matter if you don't want it (I've had this conversion before...), its just there, and it brings a whole bunch of extra hz with it, etc. And since you do have a PS3 in the house..you could possibly get some of your money back by charging the kids for the glasses!

Best Value 3D - Samsung 6100 . Now no longer seems to be on the web (although we had a display model in store today). £769 for a 200Hz 3D TV, with other wise same spec as the 5 series (looks very similar). The rumour is that Samsung are going to delete it, but at the moment you even get a 3D blu-ray free (last years model, but still a good deal). This was the price of last years 2D model.

There is a Panasonic (ST30) 3D plasma for £789, but it lacks some of the internet stuff, etc.

Best 3D for under £900? The Samsung 6530 Buy Samsung UE40D6530 LCD/LED HD 1080p 3D TV, 40 Inch, Freeview HD with Built-in Wi-Fi online at JohnLewis.com - My favourite in a 32, and is a cracking bit of kit for £899 (I think our price locally was even a little cheaper). 400hz screen, 3D, LED with Wifi built in (the others you have to buy a dongle), with full internet, etc. Great review from WhatHifi, etc. If the TV goes bang this year, this is the one I'd like to get. Deal on glasses, etc at the moment.

Sony do the EX723 series, which is also 3D, etc. But its only a 200hz screen (although 200hz is what Sony claim - it could be regarded as a 100hz by some). Good internet stuff etc though, but at £899 its difficult to argue with the Samsung.

Above that you've got the stunning Samsung D7000/8000 series. Both very similar, although the 8000 has a silver bezel, while the 7000 is acrylic, and the 8000 is apparently a slightly better panel. 800hz screen, and freesat as well as the normal goodies. At £1249 for the 7000 (and £150 more for the 8000) its not the cheapest but it is lovely. I thought the 8000 was simply the most lovely TV surround I'd ever seen. Ultra sleek.

Panasonic have the VT30 (Plasma) in the area, which is apparently fantastic, and is the closest your going to get to Pioneer. Sony do the 903 series, but again is costly and I've yet to set eyes on one.

All the 3D TV's will need a 1.4 HDMI cable, and sound will be a little light on the LED's, because they are so thin, so think about Home Cinema, etc. The blu -ray? Panasonic are getting cracking reviews (although their online conent still lets them down), and Sony continue to be excellent (although they use digital coax as an audio input, rather than optical like everyone else). Have a look at this blog for a view about blu-ray Diary of a Blu-ray virgin | whathifi.com . Made me laugh! And yes, the PS3 is a blu-ray, but prices are so cheap, go for seperates. Reemeber that Blu-rays will play all normal DV's, etc and will get you Iplayer, etc, just like TV's.

Overall? Plasma still very good against LED. A customer last year said one was deeper (plasma) and one was sharper (LED)), but plasma is basically made by only Samsung (award winning plasma 3D last year) and Panasonic. LED has taken over very quickly, and it does have advantages. I think you should find the size, and then go to a proper shop, and ask questions. If they don't know the answers (or they think insurance is more important), then go somewhere else. Look at the TV - you have to like it. Ladies don't buy shoes on the net, And you should'nt buy a TV that way either. Does it do everything you want, and does it look right to you? Thats the question.

These are two good guides TV Buying Guide - John Lewis & TV tech explained: our essential guide to buying a TV | whathifi.com , but remember that the WhatHifi advice about distance is awful. 46in TV from 1.8m is going to be horrible in SD, and I'd never recommend that to a customer. Go by the distance I recommend. Stick with Panasonic/Sony/Samsung and you'll be fine - there are plus and minus points for all. Do some homework, and then find a proper shop, and then tell us all about it!

God I need to go to sleep (and find something else to talk about!)

[christoph404]

Get a plasma and forget all the drivel about refresh rates on LCD or LED, or that it uses less electricity etc,the numbers are used as a clever marketing tool but are meaningless in real terms because no matter what the sales blurb tells you it's impossible to eliminate motion stutter on an LCD or LED,they are generally 60hz and you won't see any difference on the screens that claim 120hz and cost twice the price.Plasma and LCD/ LED work on completely different technology and technically the term " refresh rate" doesn't even belong to LED/LCD technology, it's just used as a term to convince consumers that LCD is just as good as Plasm, but it ain't,.....if your main concern is picture quality, deep blacks, nice contrast, filmic colours, no motion stutter then get a plasma. In my opinion plasma is far superior to LCD or LED, it's a shame it's considered old and outdated technology.

[Steve Crook]

Get a plasma and forget all the drivel about refresh rates on LCD or LED, or that it uses less electricity etc,the numbers are used as a clever marketing tool but are meaningless in real terms because no matter what the sales blurb tells you it's impossible to eliminate motion stutter on an LCD or LED,they are generally 60hz and you won't see any difference on the screens that claim 120hz and cost twice the price.Plasma and LCD/ LED work on completely different technology and technically the term " refresh rate" doesn't even belong to LED/LCD technology, it's just used as a term to convince consumers that LCD is just as good as Plasm, but it ain't,.....if your main concern is picture quality, deep blacks, nice contrast, filmic colours, no motion stutter then get a plasma. In my opinion plasma is far superior to LCD or LED, it's a shame it's considered old and outdated technology.

But why don't they make plasma TVs in reasonable sizes? I don't want something that will be bigger than most of the walls in my house

Steve

[MikeB]

Panasonic occasionally make 37in plasma's (nice reviews, but generally a 'special' and certainly a bit strange), and we had two different customers saying they had a 32in plasma in the same day. My colleague didn't believe the first one initially, but apparently LG did make some, and then I got another customer saying the same thing. We have never had anyone else who has one of them, so I assume that 32in was a bit of an abberation.

Plasma tended to be more expensive to make, which is perhaps why you'll only find it at 42in and above now, with Samsung starting at 51in. I still like plasma (the G & V series from Panasonic are very good), but if the size is wrong for your room, don't go there, and of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As far as big TV's go, its mostly blokes who want the largest possible (the largest we have at our store is 55in, although we did have 65in at one point), whilst their wives want a 10in. I did have a couple who wanted a 55in 3D TV in their kitchen last year though...which is almost bigger than our whole kitchen!

[Biff]

I have a back-lit Samsung LED which delivers startling results, especially in HD, but its only 22", so I don't know if the pic will be as sharp at 'big size'. I also play X-box on it with equal pleasure. I like Samsung products, I have several from phone to vacuum.

[Biff]

But why don't they make plasma TVs in reasonable sizes? I don't want something that will be bigger than most of the walls in my house

Steve

Steve, I have a friend who is a liveaboard narrowboater. He has a 55" plasma . Talk about overkill

[Steve Crook]

As far as big TV's go, its mostly blokes who want the largest possible (the largest we have at our store is 55in, although we did have 65in at one point), whilst their wives want a 10in. I did have a couple who wanted a 55in 3D TV in their kitchen last year though...which is almost bigger than our whole kitchen!

Although I am undoubtedly a male of the species I have rarely liked the things that most "blokes" are supposed to be interested in. I don't think cars are anything special and they all look like a box with a wheel at each corner to me. I don't like most sport, certainly not football. And I'm definitely not interested in having a TV that's so big that it takes over my living room and where you have to sit 50 feet away from it to avoid radiation burns. If I want to see a film on a big screen I go to the cinema

I'll check out those 32" LG plasma TVs though, thanks for that

They seem to exist, but might be discontinued

Steve

[Wolfgang]

I suggest you start another topic for coming out.

[christoph404]

I have a 42 inch panasonic plasma screen, it looks quite big in my lounge but I dont think overly so, i almost bought a 50 inch screen when I was dithering over what to buy, my missus vetoed that idea and I'm actually glad I got the smaller screen....it's easy to get carried away in the tv shop. One thing I'd say is whatever you get if you like to watch blu ray discs you really need a full HD screen which is 1080p rather than just an HD ready which is 740, again the sales folk will normally mystify you on that but there is a discernible difference between "Full HD" and "HD ready" when you are watching blu ray or even upscaled DVDs on your blu ray player. Get a "Full HD 1080p" screen.

[christoph404]

I suggest you start another topic for coming out.

Eh? ......have I missed something....?......who and what are you talking about?

[Mr Oracle]

Thanks for the advice. I have my idea on a 42" plasma as we can get one through my wife's catalogue! Or my daughter works for a certain large chain of supermarkets and get 10% off!

[Steve Crook]

Eh? ......have I missed something....?......who and what are you talking about?

I think that was one of Wolfgang's attempts at humour. He's implying that because I don't like cars & football that I must be gay

Steve

[MikeB]

Mr Oracle - please actually look at the thing first, rather than just go through a catalogue! I have had customers come in having seen a review or had a recommendation from their mate. Once they've seen it, they've hated it. In one case it was a perfectly good LG with fine reviews, but the customer just didn't warm to it. If you have your measurements, go and actually see them. Look at the remote, etc - these all make a difference.

Steve - I'd give up the search for the 32in Plasma. Since it came out in 2008, its long gone (some 2010 TV's disappeared before Christmas 2010), and frankly, its not great value now anyway (£458 is the price on Google if you can find one). HD ready with Freeview? An LCD version from LG is £329, although it lacks the 4 HDMI's and the 100hz screen. For £449 you get the excellent Samsung D5520 with 1080, Freeview HD, 100hz LED with Wifi/DLNA/Smart functions.

TV's normally get annouced in January in Las Vegas, and start to come into stores around March/April. By June most should be in, although the 37in TV's will be way behind the rest (although Panasonic have got them in very early this year). Increasingly there will model changes half-way through the year, or at least extras, and some go before Christmas (The Panasonic G20, for instance). By Feb we start to have supply problems, and March/April is when we get Which readers coming in to ask if we have this great TV that's been featured. It was an excellent buy, but stock ran out three weeks before. I hate this time of year because the old models have dried up, and the new models are always late out.

Three years is a very long time in TV's (my explainations have got much longer in the 3 years since I started). It could be worse. The guys on laptops have four difference range changes a year!

And I have to admit I like the right sized TV, don't like sport (and hate football) and couldn't really give a stuff about cars either.

[HitchcockScholar]

And what about the best SOUND?

[MikeB]

Sound is another matter!

Your old CRT is a big box (about the same deep as it is wide) with usually biggish speakers on each side. It also has big chunky components like the tube, etc in it. The sound therefore resonates pretty well, and of course you may have extra speakers with it as well. By contrast, LCD/Plasma's are usually only 4 inches deep, with relatively small speakers set either underneath or even at the rear. LED are even thinner (as well as plasma's, Panasonic had one an inch thick a couple of years ago). So less resonance and probably a slightly less rounded sound.

That being said, some are better than others, and in fact even the LED's can be pretty good, within the limitations of the design. Philips often have little sub-woofers on the back, which make them pretty good (although there are lots of minus's for that particular brand now), and the front speakers of the Panasonics/Sony's from two years ago were particularly good. Now most are much of a muchness, although I was surprised the other day to find that the LED Samsung was actually rather better than the LED Sony next to it. Traditionally, its been the other way round.

However, the reviews from WhatHiFi (for example) are generally along the lines of 'OK/pretty good for a flatscreen', although there are ones both much better and much worse than the average. Even the award winning Panasonic D25 from last year (which I would have bought myself) has the comment in its review that ' the Panasonic produces a perfectly inoffensive and well-behaved sound'. Thats basically high praise!

Beware the cheap speakers in cheap TV's - if their average in a good TV, they are generally worse in a cheap one. Rememebr that the big boys want their TV's to sound good, while the other guys don't really care.

Plasma is generally thicker even now, so probably a slightly better sound, and Panasonic's are known for their relatively good sound quality.

However, I would always go for picture quality first, since this is something that can't be changed. Sound, on the other hand, can be. You can attach speakers etc to them to upgrade the sound. All TV's will have Red/White RCA's for left right sound, and most (should) have digital optical outputs as well (much better). New higher level TV's will have ARC or 'Audio Return' on one of the HDMI imputs, so you can use a 1.4 HDMI (like the ones for 3D) to connect to a Home Cinema system with ARC. This will give you true Blu-Ray quality sound. Even if your just watching normal TV, a Home Cinema system/sound bar is worth thinking about. A cheap 5.1 DVD Home Cimema system (£150 for a new Samsung) will really help, and of course its in effect a stereo system, so you can play CD's, Ipods, etc as well. There are even TV stands about with speakers in them.

Remember that your full 1080 TV is designed with Blu-Ray in mind. Blu-Ray has much better audio quality (and of course picture quality) than a DVD/TV broadcast, so don't expect the best from your TV's own speakers if you want the best possible sound watching films (most DVD's have 5.1 sound). A 2.1 Blu-Ray system (if you dont want all those wires) starts around £300 at the moment, which is about what you pay for a Panasonic Buy Panasonic SC-BTT270 3D Ready Blu-ray/DVD Home Cinema System online at JohnLewis.com - 5.1, Blu-Ray (so goes on the net for Iplayer, etc) and is even 3D. During clearance they get even cheaper. There was an ex-display 2.1 Blu-Ray Samsung last year which went for £99 - the customer (who was a regular) came back to tell me how good it was in his study, and was very pleased at the price, which of course he should have been. And of course manufacturers often give very good deals if your buying a TV, on other equipment.

Sound bars are also a possibility, but be prepared to pay £250 plus for a good one with a subwoofer - they are better. WhatHIFi apparently did a test on six of them for the new issue, so worth a look. I'm certainly interested to see who came out on top. And of course your old stereo can always be hooked up, as can the B & W Zepplin, streaming speakers, etc. You can spend a little, or a lot, and go from a simple soundbar (the OrbitSound gets fantastic customer feedback) right up to 7.1. Wifi rear speakers are possible, etc. Think what you want/need and then go listen.

Overall, if your just watching a 32in on Freeview in a normal room, the speakers should be fine (when you set up the TV, there should be lots of audio options). If you want better sound, then go for some sort of speakers, and of course the bigger the room, the less likely that the TV speakers alone should be able to fill the room.

[HitchcockScholar]

Thanks.
Quite helpful.

[Mr Oracle]

May I ask, after so long, whether Samsung or Panasonic plasmas are better at the 50" size? Also, is the 3D version any better than the 2D?