Political Correctness. Turn on? or a turn off?

[Rowdon]

Cheers.....mines a Tuborg...
Sgt S

Why does he keep pouring the beer in his eyes? No wonder it affects his vision.

Reminds me of this song ...

[CaptainWaggett]

Hi,
Just tuned in. But I must say, what interesting views have been said so far. However, if someone wishes to be an author or scriptwriter, could PC put them off? And would they try another profession? Has it actually happened? And if so, have we missed out on talent?

While I am on, refering to an earlier comment, I never know what I am talking about.

Alan French

Do you mean we've tragically been denied the talents of someone who wants to do a remake of Curry and Chips starring Kris Marshall as a Pakistani?

[Sgt Sunshine]

......cheers
There was a weeping & gnashing of teeth.......
This Politically INCORRECT stuff could catch on....

[Tonch]

"Political Correctness" is a phrase I've never liked - a lazy catch-all term used to gloss over a range of topics and ideals. It's long been used by trashy tabloids simply to churn up a groundswell of outrage for the sake of it. But I suppose it rolls off the tongue better than "Decency, consideration for others and polite standards" which is all it really is. Used in a pejorative sense of course it represents something more sinister - a kind of sanctimonious, po-faced thought policing using the arrogant prop of "enlightened" hindsight. So, as has been said, it largely comes down to definitions. In the same way I have never found the bawdy humour of the Carry On films "sexist". Boorish and juvenile (and be honest, sometimes funny) yes. But not sexist, which for me means discrimination against someone's ability on the grounds of their gender and not crudely and openly fancying the opposite sex. Watching Reg Varney lean out of a bus cab window and go "Phwoooaaarrr!" at some young woman in hotpants is at least partly funny precisely because it puts two fingers up at "sophisticated" prats who bridle with outrage at such clearly harmless nonsense.

In the same way, the reason Gene Hunt & co find favour in modern times is because such characters hark back to a simpler, less uncertain era and serve as a nostalgic breath of fresh air in these stress-fuelled times. Most people can differentiate between a fundamentally decent and well-meaning rough diamond and an out and out nasty, bigoted, sexist/racist homophobe. We even learned to almost like Alf Garnet because, through his increasingly ludicrous ranting, he inevitably painted himself into a corner from where even he could see (though not admit) he was an idiot.

No sane, decent human being would ever wish to return to the horrible era of "Paki bashing", "Queers" and pinching women's arses whilst ordering them to brew up. But watching fiction from that age, or characters like Hunt who are set firmly within those times, is a harmless throwback to a bygone age. It's a bit like the sophisticated cuisine and more exotic culinary offerings we, as a society, largely take for granted now. Every so often you still crave egg & chips
(That's egg...not curry! ).

[faginsgirl]

Hi,
Just tuned in. But I must say, what interesting views have been said so far. However, if someone wishes to be an author or scriptwriter, could PC put them off? And would they try another profession? Has it actually happened? And if so, have we missed out on talent?

While I am on, refering to an earlier comment, I never know what I am talking about.

Alan French

A very interesting question Alan, one I have never consider doing with my Victorian scribblings. However, would I ever write about, say for a stab in the dark example , a Jewish man luring youngsters into a sordid life of thieving today? No I wouldn`t, there would be no need. Would I do the same with a modern day immigrant? Possibly, but I would have to take the cosequences of the press and the various heads of immigration human rights groups.

As a writer I have no desire to offend ANYONE, but last time I was sat in the Kings cross bus station, I have to say there was an oppotunity for material there on the very thing that I have just mentioned, but I`m not going to take it.

Now no doubt I am going to be slated by some for what I have just said. No offence meant, as a writer, I`m merely an observer of people.

[Moor Larkin]

Has it actually happened?

One very recent example was the Midsomner Murders producer I suppose, but you'll never hear of him losing his job for being un-PC, it will always be for some other reason. You will always find that those who are the most politically correct will also be the first to tell you that this phenomenon does not even exist.

A lot of it does only exist in some peculiar sort of zeitgeist. I recall that when I first came to this Board there was a thread or two about how people were not allowed to fly flags outside their houses, but there seem to be quite a few flying around where I live now. Somehow, without anyhitng changing, things change anyway. It can be somewhat like Urban Legend, however it has entered legal life too, with notions such as a person perceiving a slight will be supported by the legal process simply because it is their perception, and that whole bodies of people can be grouped together as being institutionally unacceptable, even though the individuals can be entirely innocent; and I suppose it is these sorts of realities that colour some thinking too.

On the other hand the modern mania for *taking the piss* proves that it's really only about moving the goal-posts from time to time and nothing to do with caring one way or another.

[DB7]

On the other hand the modern mania for *taking the piss* proves that it's really only about moving the goal-posts from time to time and nothing to do with caring one way or another.

I agree we're being duped to some extent, or some of us are, we're fed the same bully comedy just repackaged and masked as irony. The likes of AliG, Partridge and Bent merely drop the unacceptable targets and instead do the Oirish, disabled etc. I personally find Gervais as offensive as any act on The Comedians, but he manages to find a vehicle like Cemetery Junction to mask his working mens club routine. Not that I should complain, were it not for these monster creations what would we be left with as Noughties comedy? Those nice middle-class family sitcoms with Nicholas Lyndhurst, Caroline Quentin and Robert Lindsay.

[Corinne]

A DJ in Adelaide Australia once commented on PC when he joked that Alderman Chapman on their local council should be referred to as Alderperson Personperson.

[ShirlGirl]

A DJ in Adelaide Australia once commented on PC when he joked that Alderman Chapman on their local council should be referred to as Alderperson Personperson.

[ShirlGirl]

Being politically correct is nothing more than using good manners.

That's how it SHOULD be, but some people take it to the extreme.



By the way, haven't we covered all this PC stuff before in some other thread somewhere?

[Steve Crook]

That's how it SHOULD be, but some people take it to the extreme.

Usually only blaming "PC" for things that they don't like

By the way, haven't we covered all this PC stuff before in some other thread somewhere?

Quite a few times


BTW Doesn't PC really stand for "Political Conciousness"?
Being aware of other people and their feelings

Steve

[Moor Larkin]

Being politically correct is nothing more than using good manners.

That's how it SHOULD be, but some people take it to the extreme.

Usually only blaming "PC" for things that they don't like

It seems odd that if this is the case that manners were so much better in the past. You only have to watch an old British movie to see how courteous people were anticipated to be back then. However, many of their attitudes would be deemed to be extremely incorrect nowadays. Even the names they gave their dogs causes a lot of angst today.

I was interested in Tonch's comments earlier, where he implied as to how much better things were now that "Paki bashing", "Queers" and pinching women's arses were not *acceptable*. I can never recall a time when such behaviour WAS acceptable. Bashing people was always illegal so disapproving was society of it. I recall that people might whisper, "Strange, he never married", but the general public would probably have been protective of such local secrets as they knew that homosexual men could be prosecuted under the law. If any man had touched my mother's arse, never mind pinched it, then I expect she would have slapped his face hard. This cosy idea that somehow the liberal-left has liberated us from some kind of old tyranny is laughable. What has changed is that the elite groups who operate the law and who now lead as arbiters of *good taste* have been completely turned upon their heads and now any former lack of common sense due to the old *rightist* biases has been replaced by a lack of common sense to the other flank. Us normal people without power being ruled/governed by these elites are probably much the same as we always were. Decent and law-abiding and longing to mind our own business.

BTW Doesn't PC really stand for "Political Conciousness"?

Very much so, and that is exactly the point and why there is a nervousness of the feeling of *rightness* that the *left* sometimes seems to have, where liberalism pushes us to even justify the waging of war based on our society's own sense of righteousness.

[Steve Crook]

It seems odd that if this is the case that manners were so much better in the past. You only have to watch an old British movie to see how courteous people were anticipated to be back then. However, many of their attitudes would be deemed to be extremely incorrect nowadays. Even the names they gave their dogs causes a lot of angst today.

Were manners really better in the past? Even if you just limit it to manners seen on film (which is a very artificial limitation). There's was a lot of casual racism and sexism which was accepted in the past but really wasn't very nice

Steve

[GRAEME]

It seems odd that if this is the case that manners were so much better in the past. You only have to watch an old British movie to see how courteous people were anticipated to be back then. However, many of their attitudes would be deemed to be extremely incorrect nowadays. Even the names they gave their dogs causes a lot of angst today.

There is a huge difference between superficial ettiquette and actually showing respect.

I agree "Paki-bashing" was never acceptable - but the other things... Hmmm. And certainly it was at one time acceptable to put up signs saying "no coloureds" on accommodation to rent. Things have moved on.

If PC is about anything, it is about a change in the attitudes towards practices like this - not whether they are in themselves "acceptable of not. Nobody would turn a hair at hearing gays referred to as "queer" even if they wouldn't do it themselves - or say it to someone's face. Nowadays we'd have a pretty poor impression of someone who spoke like that. Girls having their bums pinched was a bit of a laugh - it was funny. Right.

If any man had touched my mother's arse, never mind pinched it, then I expect she would have slapped his face hard.

Oh good for her. Well, that's all right then. But what about a secretary being pestered by a boss who just has to smile and accept it if she wants to keep her job? No hope of redress. Just a bit of a laugh - don't be so bloody humourless, darling!

I'm glad you think common-sense will just magically save the day. Personally, I think it was necessary to change the way we, as a culture, think about the way we talk, behave and so on - in terms of the way that makes all the different types of people in society feel. Mostly that was done by writers and opinion formers opening up public debate, but some alterations to legislation were also needed.

If a few babies got thrown out with the dirty bathwater - well, that's a shame. Maybe we can pick them up again and they'll be all the better for their tumble.

[Mr Sloane]

Were manners really better in the past? Even if you just limit it to manners seen on film (which is a very artificial limitation). There's was a lot of casual racism and sexism which was accepted in the past but really wasn't very nice

Steve

Parented by the Huggetts,policed by Dixon of Dock Green and taught by Cecil and John Mills and if any of the local scamps transgressed the local beak was Felix.

Happier Times.

[CaptainWaggett]

Parented by the Huggetts,policed by Dixon of Dock Green and taught by Cecil and John Mills and if any of the local scamps transgressed the local beak was Felix.

Happier Times.

Yes, if PC Dixon had just given young Tom Riley a clip round the ear and found him a job on the market, things would have been very different...

[DB7]

Were manners really better in the past?

So Frank Boyle's paedophile and cancer jokes are a step forward?

[Steve Crook]

Parented by the Huggetts,policed by Dixon of Dock Green and taught by Cecil and John Mills and if any of the local scamps transgressed the local beak was Felix.

Happier Times.

Meanwhile, back in the real world (in the past or now)

Steve

[Steve Crook]

So Frank Boyle's paedophile and cancer jokes are a step forward?

There are people with bad manners nowadays just like there were in the past

Steve

[JGC]

It is worth pointing out that political correctness did(does?) have a meaning and purpose. In a nutshell it was an idea that gained force by students upon reading the (neo) Marxist Frankfurt school. Its purpose is to destroy (change?) our 'bourgeois' culture by changing the way we talk and think, particularly about gender and race. Thus the point of it is its use as a weapon to change a culture towards a Marxist direction. To think political correctness is merely about manners is to reveal not only extreme ignorance but extreme naivety.

If a few babies got thrown out with the dirty bathwater - well, that's a shame. Maybe we can pick them up again and they'll be all the better for their tumble.

Are these Nietzschian babies you envisage? Nothing like broken bones and brain damage in infancy to make one stronger.

There are people with bad manners nowadays just like there were in the past

Very true but were there any comedians in the past that were even remotely as offensive as Frankie Boyle? Some were no doubt almost as offensive in their day saying things that would be deemed extremely tame by todays standards but that only goes to show the way manners have changed for the worse. I find it quite extraordinary that anyone could seriously think that we were in general no better mannered in the past.