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Those police documentaries.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Steve Crook View Post

    Pure "Daily Mail"

    If you think that prison is a luxury hotel, try staying in one for a while

    I doubt very much that any of the Mail journalists (or anyone else) who describes prison as a holiday camp or as a luxury hotel, has ever been incarcerated in one

    Ask anyone who's been to prison if they ever want to go back there. It is a deterrent for most people

    Steve
    I'd rather not (stay in one), thanks all the same.

    I've visited Alcatraz and Crumlin Road Prison's a tourist, pretty grim places, but they're historic, show how life inside used to be.

    Three square meals a day, instant medical attention, pool tables, music and TV systems, no work, tending vegetable gardens, reading and painting, casual clothes worn nowadays instead of a uniform, whatever you want smuggled in, doesn't sound much of a deterrent to a potential robber, etc; to me !

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Mark O View Post

      I'd rather not (stay in one), thanks all the same.
      Don't commit any crimes then

      I've visited Alcatraz and Crumlin Road Prison's a tourist, pretty grim places, but they're historic, show how life inside used to be.
      No English prisons then?
      And just as a visitor?

      Three square meals a day, instant medical attention, pool tables, music and TV systems, no work, tending vegetable gardens, reading and painting, casual clothes worn nowadays instead of a uniform, whatever you want smuggled in, doesn't sound much of a deterrent to a potential robber, etc; to me !
      Would you rather that they were starved and not given any medical attention?
      That counts as torture

      As for "whatever you want smuggled in", that's back to the Daily Mail fantasy version of prisons

      What about being locked in your cell for most of the day? No contact with the outside world? That's the biggest part of the punishment

      Steve

      Comment


      • #18
        Before people get all nostalgic for Dixon of Dock Green, remember that he was a fictional character, and that even by the sixties, his character was looking a bit old fashioned and idealised. The police loved the character (hardly surprisingly), although I notice there are some stories about low level corruption within the police, but it was never going to be a wholly realistic portrayal of policing at that time. Thats one reason why 'Z Cars' was described as a 'hot show' when it came out - it was seen as much more gritty and realistic.

        The same possibly goes for most British crime films of the time - everyone has a nickname, and is generally an 'ordinary decent criminal' ('Its all right, guv, I'll come quietly'). Someone once observed that pretty much the same actors and nicknames were used in British war films of the time as well!

        Donald Thomas has written some excellent books about British Crime, including one about the period after WW2 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Villains-Pa...0001659&sr=1-7 - and after reading it, you have a somewhat different view of the post war period. Guns are easy to find, violence is plentiful, petty crime and the black market flourished and many crimes such as domestic violence are largely ignored. And the police were often corrupt, perhaps turning a blind eye to organised crime or 'fitting up' people to improve clearup figures.

        I hope he (or someone else) will write a history of British crime between the wars. You find lots on Victorian and Georgian crime (rightly so), and Thomas's and other have written about crime during WW2, but post 1919 is a bit of a desert, although people are at least publishing some articles http://oro.open.ac.uk/10655/1/download.pdf . Lots about the 'golden age of detective fiction' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden...ective_fiction , but this is the time that forensics really ramps up, the formation of the Flying Squad (set up to combat newly mobile and more violent criminals), and huge changes in society after WW1.

        As for going back to black maria's, thats unlikely, since it would be very hard to spot them!

        BTW - the traditional policman's helmet is one of the last vestiges of the 19th century vogue for helmets to which you could often add plumes, of the type you really only now see at the 'Changing of the Guard'. Such a helmet was similar in concept to the German Picklehabe or the post Soviet Revolution Red Army helmets with that strange stump on top, and as late as the 80's, there were one or two forces whose helmets still had the capacity to add a ball or even spike on top. And I'm delighted to finally find out why CID officers might refer to uniformed officers as 'woodentops' - older helmets were made from cork!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Steve Crook View Post
          Don't commit any crimes then
          I have no intention of doing so !

          No English prisons then?
          And just as a visitor?
          The one at Oxford, a converted Castle, I'm not likely to visit a proper working Prison in England.

          Would you rather that they were starved and not given any medical attention?
          That counts as torture
          No, I didn't suggest anything like that, it's just maybe a days work, like they used to do, would be more constructive, sowing mailbags, etc;

          As for "whatever you want smuggled in", that's back to the Daily Mail fantasy version of prisons
          For goodness sake !

          The Daily Mail doesn't rule my life, never did.

          What about being locked in your cell for most of the day? No contact with the outside world? That's the biggest part of the punishment

          Steve
          That's the lags own stupid fault for being naughty in the first place.

          I'd rather reserve my sympathy for the victims of crime, the emotional scars never heal for some people, they don't think about the trauma of the innocent when they stick a gun into their neck during a hold-up, do they now.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mark O View Post
            I'd rather reserve my sympathy for the victims of crime, the emotional scars never heal for some people, they don't think about the trauma of the innocent when they stick a gun into their neck during a hold-up, do they now.
            Exactly.

            I don't think prison would be like a hotel, but don't forget it's supposed to be for rehabilitation as much as for punishment. The punishment is loss of liberty. That really is a huge punishment and it must be awful, irrespective of the prison conditions. As for the comforts, they won't be rehabilitated if they're not treated humanely, although it does seem they may have too many rights sometimes.

            That said, there are many violent, hardened criminals who will never change and never be remorseful. It would be nice if those ones could be shackled, tossed into a damp, vermin-infested dungeon and given nothing but bread and water, like in olden times, because that's what they deserve.
            ~Signed: Cruella de Vil

            Comment


            • #21
              And I'm delighted to finally find out why CID officers might refer to uniformed officers as 'woodentops' - older helmets were made from cork!
              I've recently had some dealings with Try and Lilly in Liverpool (the hat makers) they have just found an 1890 policeman's helmet in the sample boxes and yes its made of cork.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mark O View Post
                Three square meals a day,
                You think they should be under-nourished? Isn't that the sort of thing that Hitler and Stalin did?

                instant medical attention,
                Not significantly different to the general population, then.

                pool tables, music and TV systems,
                The luxury!

                no work,
                Wrong.

                tending vegetable gardens,
                Isn't that "work"?!

                reading and painting,
                We can probably lump these in with the "pool tables" et al. Are they supposed to sit staring at the bare walls in their free time?

                casual clothes worn nowadays instead of a uniform,
                Wrong. They don't have to wear stripey pyjamas and a pillbox hat anymore, but for men there are still recognisable uniforms.

                whatever you want smuggled in,
                A problem, but not universally true. That it's happening on the scale that it is is due to under-funding of both infrastructure and the workforce.

                doesn't sound much of a deterrent to a potential robber, etc; to me !
                Because you have no idea what you're talkign about. As usual.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Nick Cooper View Post
                  You think they should be under-nourished? Isn't that the sort of thing that Hitler and Stalin did?


                  Not significantly different to the general population, then.


                  The luxury!


                  Wrong.


                  Isn't that "work"?!


                  We can probably lump these in with the "pool tables" et al. Are they supposed to sit staring at the bare walls in their free time?


                  Wrong. They don't have to wear stripey pyjamas and a pillbox hat anymore, but for men there are still recognisable uniforms.


                  A problem, but not universally true. That it's happening on the scale that it is is due to under-funding of both infrastructure and the workforce.


                  Because you have no idea what you're talkign about. As usual.
                  You'd soon change your tune if you were the victim of crime.

                  Some years ago I had children's Christmas presents stolen from the back seat of my car (yes, I know I should have put them in the boot), the window was broken, I used to work with a woman who's elderly sister was attacked and robbed in her own home, is it any wonder I have no compassion for robbers and thieves, I'm entitled to my opinion, and I don't care for all this 'libertarianism' in today's society.

                  In some places people have to wait weeks for a Doctor's appointment, a Prisoner is seen straight away.

                  Tending a vegetable patch isn't real work, it's provided food for the inmates, no one is forced to work in Prison.

                  They don't have to stare at bare walls, they're all provided with TV in their cells, or read a book, sounds a pleasant, restful life to me.

                  I'm not saying we should return to the days of the crank and treadwheel, but maybe a more 1930's style of regime, the good old days, when you could walk along the street without fear of being assaulted, and people in the neighbourhood looked out for one another.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mark O View Post
                    In some places people have to wait weeks for a Doctor's appointment, a Prisoner is seen straight away.

                    Tending a vegetable patch isn't real work, it's provided food for the inmates, no one is forced to work in Prison.

                    They don't have to stare at bare walls, they're all provided with TV in their cells, or read a book, sounds a pleasant, restful life to me.
                    How do you know these things? How are you so sure of them? Because it's been reported like that in the scaremongering newspapers?

                    I'm not saying we should return to the days of the crank and treadwheel, but maybe a more 1930's style of regime, the good old days, when you could walk along the street without fear of being assaulted, and people in the neighbourhood looked out for one another.
                    Yes, let's go back to hanging people as well, like they did in the 1930s.
                    Of course nobody was ever hung incorrectly Click image for larger version  Name:	wallbash.gif Views:	1 Size:	2.3 KB ID:	1735

                    There was still a lot of crime in the 1930s

                    Steve

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mark O View Post

                      You'd soon change your tune if you were the victim of crime.
                      Since I already have been, I doubt it.

                      Some years ago I had children's Christmas presents stolen from the back seat of my car (yes, I know I should have put them in the boot), the window was broken, I used to work with a woman who's elderly sister was attacked and robbed in her own home, is it any wonder I have no compassion for robbers and thieves, I'm entitled to my opinion, and I don't care for all this 'libertarianism' in today's society.
                      I fully understand that some people lack empathy.

                      In some places people have to wait weeks for a Doctor's appointment, a Prisoner is seen straight away.
                      So what? Taking away on-site medical services in prisons would have absolutely zero effect on GP waiting times. You should be complainign about the causes of the latter, not making some spurious comparison with the former.

                      Tending a vegetable patch isn't real work, it's provided food for the inmates, no one is forced to work in Prison.
                      No, but if they don't work, they don't get paid.

                      They don't have to stare at bare walls, they're all provided with TV in their cells, or read a book, sounds a pleasant, restful life to me.
                      You're being deliberately obtuse. First you complain that they have recreational options, but when asked if you think they should have nothing, you reply that they don't have nothing, because they have those very same options.

                      I'm not saying we should return to the days of the crank and treadwheel, but maybe a more 1930's style of regime, the good old days, when you could walk along the street without fear of being assaulted, and people in the neighbourhood looked out for one another.
                      You should try looking through some 1930s newspapers sometime, if you will persist in this rose-tinted view of the past.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Steve Crook View Post
                        How do you know these things? How are you so sure of them? Because it's been reported like that in the scaremongering newspapers?


                        Yes, let's go back to hanging people as well, like they did in the 1930s.
                        Of course nobody was ever hung incorrectly Click image for larger version Name:	wallbash.gif Views:	1 Size:	2.3 KB ID:	1735

                        There was still a lot of crime in the 1930s

                        Steve
                        How do you know Prisoners are locked up in their cells for hours on end ?

                        I wasn't advocating judicial execution, I was just inferring a more Spartan regime may be a deterrent.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nick Cooper View Post



                          You should try looking through some 1930s newspapers sometime, if you will persist in this rose-tinted view of the past.
                          I'm aware there was a large unemployment figure in 1930's, but at least communities helped one another

                          I regard up until 1969 as 'the good old days', then Manson 'killed the 60's', and what with all the terrorism, massacres, and mayhem of the 70's onwards, it really did turn society on it's head.



                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mark O View Post
                            How do you know Prisoners are locked up in their cells for hours on end ?
                            Some quotes from the Northamptonshire Telegraph, "Life Behind Bars".
                            WE'VE all seen the stories about life behind bars. "Prisons are more like holiday camps" – the inmates get to lie around all day watching TV, they have access to state-of-the-art gyms and they even get paid to play chess and learn to play the guitar. It's better than being on the outside and having to earn a living, right? I wanted to find out what life in jail was really like, so I spent the day at Wellingborough Prison. The jail is a category C prison, which is relatively low-level security, but it has a number of "lifers" and all inmates will spend at least 11 hours a day locked in their cells.

                            A typical day in prison starts at 7.30am with a roll check, where the prison officers check everyone is where they are supposed to be. The inmates are kept in their cells for this and the officers radio in the verdict to a central control point. If the numbers are out anywhere in the prison the whole process has to be repeated until everyone is accounted for. Breakfast is at 8am on the wing and at 8.25am everyone gets 20 minutes in the exercise yard. There's also the chance to see the nurse or check in with the drug treatment team. At 8.55am the majority of inmates go off to their "job" or to the education centre.

                            At 11.45am it's time for everyone to head back to their wing for lunch, where they're locked in their cells from 12.15pm until 1.30pm. After that, it's back to their job or the education centre. Only a few prisoners will remain on the wing, usually because they've just come to the prison and haven't been allocated a job or a course yet. The prison service sees this as a key part of their rehabilitation. At 4.25pm it's back to the wing again for lock-up. There's a roll check at 5pm and everyone is kept in their cell until dinner at 5.30pm. After that they're given a couple of hours to use the gym or attend an evening class at the prison's learning centre. In the evenings prisoners can also see specialists from Narcotics Anonymous or Alcoholics Anonymous, or use the time to phone home. At 8.15pm it back to the wing again. There's another roll check and then you're left locked in your cell until morning.

                            Inmates have their own TV and can stick posters on the walls and put up photos of their families. But the cells themselves are small and basic. There is a bed, a desk and chair, a cupboard and a toilet and sink. I couldn't bear five minutes inside one, let alone 11 hours. We left the prison through the same series of locked gates and doors as we came in. Cliched as it sounds, stepping outside reception the air did feel fresher.

                            Read more at: http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/...-bars-1-754892

                            I wasn't advocating judicial execution, I was just inferring a more Spartan regime may be a deterrent.
                            I understand what you mean, Mark, but locked in your cell for at least 11 hours a day wouldn't be very nice. (In the first paragraph above... "The jail is a category C prison, which is relatively low-level security, but it has a number of "lifers" and all inmates will spend at least 11 hours a day locked in their cells.") I expect maximum security would be worse.

                            Prisoner to journalist...... "Prison isn't like a holiday camp. The worst thing is being away from your family and friends. The deterrent isn't being in prison, it's being away from your family and that's the guilt factor too."

                            Read more at: http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/...-bars-1-754892



                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Well, it probably wouldn't be too bad for a person like me who has no family or friends and therefore has no one to miss being with. In fact, I should think that boredom would be more of a problem than loneliness. A major problem would be having to share a cell with someone you just don't get on with.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Shirley Brahms View Post


                                Some quotes from the Northamptonshire Telegraph, "Life Behind Bars".
                                WE'VE all seen the stories about life behind bars. "Prisons are more like holiday camps" – the inmates get to lie around all day watching TV, they have access to state-of-the-art gyms and they even get paid to play chess and learn to play the guitar. It's better than being on the outside and having to earn a living, right? I wanted to find out what life in jail was really like, so I spent the day at Wellingborough Prison. The jail is a category C prison, which is relatively low-level security, but it has a number of "lifers" and all inmates will spend at least 11 hours a day locked in their cells.

                                A typical day in prison starts at 7.30am with a roll check, where the prison officers check everyone is where they are supposed to be. The inmates are kept in their cells for this and the officers radio in the verdict to a central control point. If the numbers are out anywhere in the prison the whole process has to be repeated until everyone is accounted for. Breakfast is at 8am on the wing and at 8.25am everyone gets 20 minutes in the exercise yard. There's also the chance to see the nurse or check in with the drug treatment team. At 8.55am the majority of inmates go off to their "job" or to the education centre.

                                At 11.45am it's time for everyone to head back to their wing for lunch, where they're locked in their cells from 12.15pm until 1.30pm. After that, it's back to their job or the education centre. Only a few prisoners will remain on the wing, usually because they've just come to the prison and haven't been allocated a job or a course yet. The prison service sees this as a key part of their rehabilitation. At 4.25pm it's back to the wing again for lock-up. There's a roll check at 5pm and everyone is kept in their cell until dinner at 5.30pm. After that they're given a couple of hours to use the gym or attend an evening class at the prison's learning centre. In the evenings prisoners can also see specialists from Narcotics Anonymous or Alcoholics Anonymous, or use the time to phone home. At 8.15pm it back to the wing again. There's another roll check and then you're left locked in your cell until morning.

                                Inmates have their own TV and can stick posters on the walls and put up photos of their families. But the cells themselves are small and basic. There is a bed, a desk and chair, a cupboard and a toilet and sink. I couldn't bear five minutes inside one, let alone 11 hours. We left the prison through the same series of locked gates and doors as we came in. Cliched as it sounds, stepping outside reception the air did feel fresher.

                                Read more at: http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/...-bars-1-754892


                                I understand what you mean, Mark, but locked in your cell for at least 11 hours a day wouldn't be very nice. (In the first paragraph above... "The jail is a category C prison, which is relatively low-level security, but it has a number of "lifers" and all inmates will spend at least 11 hours a day locked in their cells.") I expect maximum security would be worse.

                                Prisoner to journalist...... "Prison isn't like a holiday camp. The worst thing is being away from your family and friends. The deterrent isn't being in prison, it's being away from your family and that's the guilt factor too."

                                Read more at: http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/...-bars-1-754892


                                So if they're locked up for 11 hours (in a 24 hour day), then presumably for the other 13 hours they are not confined to their cells ?

                                Comment

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